LWID S3E4 | Cryolite Mining, NATO Threats & Wins for (Industry) Workers

Hot on the heels of the Greenland debate, the new DR documentary on cryolite extraction is adding fuel to an already raging fire. Danish intelligence is sounding the alarm on a potential Russian offensive with weakening NATO ties. Industry workers secured some wins in a new agreement that saw increase in wages, as well as more flexibility in leave allowance and overtime compensation. Tune in to Arun, who is back at the helm this week to discuss these top news with our 2nd resident Irish co-host, Katie.

In this episode:

1. The saga of Greenland's White Gold (03:35)
2. The Russian red alert - should we be concerned? (16:25)
3. Updated collective agreement for industry workers (25:39)
4. Thoughts about cultural and family ties (28:00)

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Chapters

• 3:35 Greenland's White Gold
• 16:25 The Russian red alert
• 25:39 Updated collective agreement for industry workers
• 28:00 Thoughts about cultural and family ties

Transcript

0:00

[MUSIC] Hello everyone, welcome to Last Week in Denmark. This is season three, episode number four, and my name is Arun, and I am here with Katie. Katie, welcome to the show. Hi. Thanks for having me. Katie, this is your first ever podcast with the last week in Denmark. So how do you feel? I am excited, deeply nervous, but I'm glad you're here. I'm glad we're doing it together. How are you doing? I was a bit nervous as well, because it's been quite some time since I actually did podcast, especially with the last season. I wasn't sure if I will continue, but I managed to pull up and see when I said I'm going to do it. So. Yes. It took me some time to reconsider, but I am super excited for this season three, and at the same time, I had a good week, to be honest. So I'm actually with fresh perspectives, and yeah, I'm for it, for the conversation that you'll have in today. So what was your opinion and thought process before signing up to this podcast? I think I really appreciate the newsletter. I think as an international, it can be very difficult or just very easy to ignore the news, just because it's typically all in Danish, and kind of finding the information you need. In English, and then translating every webpage, and then sometimes the translations aren't great. For example, genes always come out as cowboy pants, which makes everything funnier, actually. So I think it's just something I really appreciated it, and then there was obviously the call for a podcast host. And yeah, it's been really interesting so far. It's also nice we get a sneak peek into what's coming up in the upcoming newsletter. So I like that, kind of being in the know. Yeah, yeah. The thing that actually excites me the most with last week in Denmark is that I think they are so consistent in covering up a lot of news from different news articles and making it every week. That's a commitment to another level, which I should actually learn. And I've been following the work since the whole year. And I signed up, like you signed up this year. I signed up last year, and wanted to venture with the nurses and his team. So I had a similar kind of experience like you had. So yeah, so good so far. Yeah, all good. Should we dive into this week's episode? Yes, up and running, ready. So today we will be discussing about three major topics. One with the recent documentary about cryolite mining, which has reignited tensions between Denmark and Greenland. And before we dive deep in, I will also tell the next two topics, which is Denmark's intelligence agency wants Russia and could threaten NATO, but experts question the alarm. And the last topic would be the new collective agreement for industry workers, posting wages and parental leave and work flexibility. So these are the three topics we would dive in. So let's start with the first one. Where does the fun begin? There's a couple of fun topics in here. But yeah, the day are documentary. So the documentary about the recent cryolite mining has actually sparked a lot of issues within the Danish media outlet and that led to a lot of conversations fuming between political parties and Greenland leaders. My take with this article, I haven't gone through the entire documentary myself, but seen from a past colonized country, I kind of find this conversation so relevant as a person who was from the colonizing part, colonized part. My perspective is that does it really matter to talk about what happened when colonies tried to use resources from their native lands? Because probably the part of colonization involves these trade-offs, right? And if you go back to like 200 years ago, when Britishers of the East India Company came to India, we had similar stories, quite similar to what is happening right now in Greenland. So I'm just talking from my own experience with my own homeland. But it seems to me that this has been gaining traction because Greenland wants independence and they use this as a tool or mechanism to kind of voice out and bring in a lot of maybe buying more supporters. So I don't really buy in from my opinion. What do you think? Do you know what? I think just lately poor Greenland, they're just trying to get by and Donald Trump is coming in from the left trying to buy them and then someone makes a documentary about Cryolite, which honestly I had never heard of until I got this email that this is what was coming up today. But I think it is important to discuss it, particularly Greenland isn't independent now. I think they have wanted their independence for quite some time. And I do think it is the nature of a colonizer to kind of brush over, you know, "Oh, we just murdered these people or we just took all this money." And I suppose just to kind of take a step back and talk about what is Cryolite. So it is something that has been very critical in history. Basically, aluminium was something that was very, very difficult to use and Cryolite made it very easy and very cheap to make things out of it, which became super duper critical in World War II and making planes, which was, you know, kind of the critical change when we got into World War II. And what's probably more important is that the only place you can find a large amount of it is Greenland. So it is a huge deal that Denmark found this capitalized on it. It was mined by Danish workers who then paid Danish taxes and it was then sold by Denmark for, I think, was the estimated 400 billion DKK. Now, I did ask my partner about this and kind of she watches more documentaries and reads more news, she is Danish. So she's kind of my go-to and I'm like, "What do you think is going on over here?" And she did say there is a lot of criticism about the documentary kind of throwing out facts and figures and, you know, where is the basis for it? Like you're saying, is this a reliable source or is it just someone kind of capitalizing a little bit and kind of making it more dramatic to make the documentary a bit more sensationalist? Exactly. So I think someone did come back and say, "No, no, no, it was only about 15 billion DKK." Which I think was the wrong answer. I don't know why they thought that would be a convincing argument. And but at the same time, I do see what you're saying in the sense of this is something that was done. You know, it ended in the 1980s, so it is like, OK, if Greenland are just noticing it now when Denmark makes a documentary, has it really affected them? Does do they really have the right to kind of stand up and say, like, what's going on here? But I think the Prime Minister does have some valid questions. Like, what would Denmark have been without that bump in income and jobs? I think it's a very valid question. And then I think they're kind of in a bit of a tornado agreement, as they said, Mr. Trump. Always very scary. And then all the ongoing things with Denmark and kind of the world slowly learning kind of what happened between Denmark and Greenland. You know, I think as a country and a country that wants independence, who can Greenland trust? Who is in looking out for their best interests? Because if you look at this example, Denmark didn't share much of this cryolite industry with Greenland. But obviously they could have used that to get independence. But then you have Donald Trump, who I don't think cares about anybody but himself and his own hair. So where do they look to for support? You know, so at the end of the day, I'm just like, oh, Greenland. The thing with the trade off is that what concerns me the most with a country like Greenland with a population closest 50, 60,000? I don't know if it's easier for them to defend themselves if this trade off has to happen. And there's a lot of ice attracting towards potential mining opportunities in Greenland. And now we saw the cryolite thing, but there could be many more than the next gold or probably more precious than what we consider precious at the moment, which could be bauxite or lithium ion or something. Right. And as an international in Denmark, I start to concern. Well, if I were to pick a pick a site, I would choose not to go with US American interest because. No, I don't think anyone should side with the US right now. Yeah, it's for them. Their notion towards coming and buying Greenland is purely kind of an annex to their states and then try to exploit the natural resources that Greenland could have and not to have sovereignty for a nation that is seeking independence. And that is also the same intention for other countries like China and Russia who wants to trade with Greenland. So Greenland sees a huge opportunity and they wanted to actually kind of, you know, what this is the time we will go all in and then bring all evidence. So we kind of, they want independence fair enough, but is it the right time? And are they capable enough to defend themselves because country like, let's say, military power supremacy could easily annex it. I don't think they're waiting for the right time. I would assume they're still not make this happen. So yeah, very vulnerable position to be in in the sense of everyone else can see your value. I think as well, kind of just talking about the fact that Greenland is so small. And as you say, they, there's such a huge, it's like a huge land mass and they don't know what precious things are hiding in that land. I often think about this in Ireland. We obviously have like the Republic of Ireland and then Northern Ireland. And often people like, oh, do you ever think there would be a United Ireland? And kind of some people see that as the perfect picture. But realistically, Northern Ireland is a bit of an economical whole. So it would be a huge financial burden to take on Northern Ireland into the Republic and reabsorb it. So there's kind of all these economical factors of like, OK, let's say, you know, Greenland finds all these natural resources. Do they have the manpower and the training and the education to do something with it? And then if they do have that to extract it, whatever it is from the earth, do they have the means to sell it globally to whoever? And do we have the intelligence to know who's OK to sell to? Please, not the Russians. But like, where can those go? How do we do that responsibly? But also, how do we make sure Greenland is getting a fair shot? Because they have they managed this in the past? I really don't know enough. But I just worry about Greenland basically in general. I have a lot of these conversations with my colleagues as well. I was surprised to see a majority of the Danish lean towards. Yeah, it would be nice to give them independence because I don't think annexing them or having them part of Denmark adds any value. But historically, that has not been the case. Four hundred billion is a lot of money and trade off with mining is a huge business. And there could be potentially more businesses. And like, let's say, let's compare with Norway, right? Norway has a huge natural oil reserves. So they are filthy rich compared to a lot of other Scandinavian countries, in my opinion. And Denmark mainly depends on manpower and the recent developments with what we call life sciences, innovation and energy conservation production. Right. And as a person coming from a developing nation, I see the land as a huge asset, huge value. And how we could incentivize people to go and work in Greenland. I was wondering, what if we send all the people who want to, you know, ambitious people to go and do mining projects in Greenland and incentivize them and cut off the taxes? A lot of people go do businesses there. And that's how I see as a guy from another country is to say, hey, there is a huge business opportunity. And if incentivize, right, people could actually make a value. And that's also going to invest incentivize the locals. But people don't agree with me. They say they go with this enter loan. I don't know if you know the word enter loan. It's like a feeling where if you're ambitious, you should probably go to America. It's people, people that want my people values and they don't really feel like we could push ourselves to go and conquer or be, you know, build businesses and make more profits and stuff. But I was shocked when a person like person, you know, put subverts on saying, oh, that's their decision. They have to live by that. But but also there's a lot of mixed opinions. I'm not the only one who's saying it. But yeah, I think it's the trouble as well as like, no investor from Greenland. We don't know what the reality is of being someone from Greenland. And the challenges or anything that comes with that. So it's very easy for us to be. I mean, I would be on your side, though, I think sometimes I can be a capitalist cog in a machine. But at the same time, like, OK, businesses bring money, money brings infrastructure that would bring benefits to the community of Greenland. And I do feel like that's kind of the struggle with this topic in the sense of like, at the end of the day, what's going to benefit the Greenland people more? And it is there's not really someone to trust because it is it does come down to like money, who's going to pay the most, what's going to happen there? But as shiny and happy as that topic is, should we move on to the second one? Yeah, absolutely. But before before moving on, I had one more thing to talk about. And I like this to how long have you been in Denmark so far? Me? Yeah, three years, I think it was three years in. I mean, I know it was three years. It was three years in October. I've been in office. You know, you know, there is an exam called medborgerskab for you. It's for active citizenship in Denmark. And there used to be we used to have a lot of questions about, you know, Greenland and stuff. The very reason that America pushes, pushes saying strategic move to annex and have our border secure is a myth because Greenland already has a US military base. It's called tool. T H U L E and they are kept historically many, many years when the NATO was formed and that has already been defending borders. So anyone who says that this is a strategic move to kind of protect the NATO, I don't think it's it's true because they do have a base just like the way they have been many other NATO countries. And that's an added point from people who actually know the geopolitical geopolitical things that we we we have. We have to read this and you have to kind of it's a mandatory thing if you go and apply for the active citizenship in the country. So that's a fact. Yeah. OK, that's it. Let's move on to the other topic, which is sort of being in the news for quite some time. I think I've read this article. It's a kind of a similar article half a year ago when the Korean war was in its peak, I would say, and it has resurfaced, I assume. And that is Denmark's big red warning. The Denmark's military intelligence kind of, you know, puts in an alarm saying Russia could engage in a regional war against NATO countries. And it sees the alliance as weak or divided. So probably that could be the time where we might have some issues or full scale war, probably. I don't know how realistic it is. But let's talk let's talk about facts here. Since nobody have no clue how many soldiers were engaging in war with Ukraine. Some say at least it's not a fact, in my opinion. Some say that the estimated suggested people who lost lives or 800,000 soldiers. I don't know if it's actually true. And the economy of Russia is under strain, which is also something that I don't agree. But I do understand there's a lot of losses from both sides, both from NATO and also in Russia. But does it really weaken our does it really weaken the integrity of NATO? And does it actually create another war? I don't I don't know. I don't really think so. In my opinion, what do you think? Yeah, I think same as you. It was kind of going through the article and expecting to see lots of scary facts and reasons why I should be afraid. So I think it was Denmark's intelligence agency, warrants Russia could threaten NATO within six months. But experts question alarm. And I think that sentence alone made me kind of be like, well, who are the experts? If one expert is saying this is going to happen, the other one be like, nah, chill. It's not a big deal. Don't worry. I'm like, which who I know which one I would rather listen to. But really, I think, you know, as you say, like in terms of the life, there's a lot of we estimate this or we think this is happening in Russia. It's like, we have no idea what's going on. Russia is a black box at the moment. So it is this kind of what is the point of this article is almost what I would say. And I think it is interesting to kind of be like, well, Denmark's intelligence agency says this and it is quite a stark warning. It's kind of, you know, we could be in a full scale war in Europe in five years if the US doesn't intervene. And obviously, everyone's afraid of the US as we've come up several times, even though we haven't been talking that long. And but it's obviously the hot topic at the moment. So, you know, we read that and you're like, oh, OK, something terrible is going to happen. But then defence analysts are like, right, listen, if that's going to happen, these three things need to happen as well, which is Europe stops investing in defence, which I feel like every second article in the news anywhere that you read is different European countries investing in defence. I think there was even something recently that we might have to work more so we get more war taxes. So like, I don't see that happening ever, particularly with everyone so afraid of everything. And then the idea that NATO is going to fall apart, it's like, OK, it's not going to fall apart overnight, maybe over a longer period of time. Is it? Yeah, it's kind of like this. This took a long time to build up. I'm sure no one's just like, good, will we stop? Who would bother? And then the other thing was the US stays on the sidelines. And while the US is quite unpredictable right now, I feel like Donald Trump will find several other things he needs to do that are quite ridiculous, that will take his attention away. So it is, you know, these three major things need to happen for us to kind of consider that Russia is going to escalate things so much so that we'll have a full scale war in five years. So I think it's a little bit like, why is this article here? Why are they trying to scare us? Are they trying to inform us? Is it to make sure we don't get complacent? Because I am definitely very happy to ignore everything about the idea of an impending war. But at the same time, I'm reading this and I'm like, what do I do with this information? But also if there is an impending war, what can I as an individual human being who has to get up on Monday and go to work and type at my little desk and answer my little emails? Like, what am I meant to do with this information? So I think it poses the question, why do we have these warnings? Like, I have some water in my basement. Should I get more? Will that make me feel better about war? I don't think so. It's just amplifying the public's fear. And the thing that I could raise some awareness about is the thing is NATO is never going to fall apart. If the moment, let's say, Europe stops investing in defense, right? I don't think it will directly conflict the NATO's alliance because I think the concept of incentivizing or the incentives actually have a cycle. So NATO needs influx of money and US is a major player. So they can't just sit on the sideline and say, OK, we are not getting any investments. Let's back up. I don't think that is going to ever happen. There's a lot of private entities that are so well connected. So that is not on the cards. What could be a hypothesis here, which is also interesting is that if one or two countries, let's say, pull out. I don't think it's going to happen. But if it happens, what if it happens? Then there's a situation that Russia could annex more borders. That is a challenge. That is a tricky part. I don't know if there could be a situation where some of the Eastern European countries could kind of potentially be like, OK, you know what, guys, I'm done. And that could be a question. There's already a lot of border dispute issues within East and the West of Europe. And this could really threaten the NATO alliances in the future. But I don't really see it happening. But that is a hypothesis on the cards. But that still doesn't equate to the concerns that we should have right now. Because of course, it could affect inflation. Maybe there could be inflation in a certain degree. But like you said, it doesn't affect me. As long as I'm concerned, when I wake up in Monday morning, I'm concerned about answering my mails, like you mentioned. And then the weather. If it snows, I probably have to switch transport. And that's my biggest fear right now, because I have to walk a kilometer. I would love a bit of snow though. Yeah, talking about snow today, it was actually quite snowy the whole day in Copenhagen. Isn't the same in Aarhus? How was the weather in Aarhus? It's cold. And there was like little hopeful flutterings of snow, I would say. But nothing stuck. So no winter magic just yet. But it was nice to see. I think it's been weirdly warm the last while. So I was happy to have some solid cold and potential snow for a little bit. And I can work remotely. So it'll be fine. So yeah, to summarize this whole conversation, what I understand is that I think the ordinary citizens probably are probably reading this article could be concerned. It is just basically amplifying fear of public doesn't actually give any awareness to educate people and the facts and figures are not it's our indicative purposes. Right. And I don't think it's it's figurative. Yeah. And just to add to more points, Russia is actually getting a good deal with Asian countries. For example, they made a really good deal with Iran, China and India. And they're making different options to kind of, you know, make it easy for them to trade. So what the media that we see of consume in Europe may be leading towards what they want Europeans to know. So we can't just take one side of one sided approach. Otherwise, how do you think Russia gets a lot of arms and ammunition and military firepower? There's a lot of these documentaries being published in YouTube videos, which talks about how Russia is financing their war. And that's interesting because when I see other media talking about a different angle, maybe the facts that we see from a European news outlet could not be just solely trusted or consumed. So we have to think from other outlets and say what the left and right has to say about it. So that's that's how I see it, at least. That is interesting. If I'm completely honest, I avoid the news 90 percent of the time now because it's all terrible. I don't want to know. It's too scary. I hear enough of it from other people and I had last week in Denmark, that's pretty much how I stay on top of things. If something's very important, someone will let me know. But I think it is just kind of that constant reminder, particularly in this age of social media where there's so much information coming from so many places as we have to be really critical of what we're reading. Because like it took us what two seconds to pick apart this article. Obviously we did prep for the show, but you know, it was kind of, OK, one is saying this, one is saying that. Really, what I think it is is kind of going, well, Trump is the president and that's a little scary. I think that is just the undertone of this is something could happen, but maybe it won't. And then we can move on basically. So we'll just have to see what happens. I think. Yeah. Should we go on to the next one? Yes. So I think the last topic for today is on the new collective agreement for industry workers. And that's going to boost wages, parental leave and work flexibility. Some good news finally. So this I think this has been going on for quite some time with the trade unions. But this will basically improve the working lives of 230,000 industry workers in Denmark. So it's going to make a huge difference to a large number of people at a positive difference, which is more important than anything in this day and age that we are in. And, you know, and they've obviously been fighting for a long time for these better working conditions. So the kind of significant things, just kind of the main things is they're going to get an increase to the minimum hourly wage and 1% rise in the employee pension contributions. So already kind of you see an immediate uplift for everyone who's working in those kind of areas. What I really, really liked and found very interesting, but also very Denmark was the improvements they're making to things like sick leave. So for example, if you're a grandparent now, you can take sick leave for your grandchildren. Which I think is really interesting because it recognizes a shift firstly that obviously a lot of people rely on their parents to be able to help care for their children. This modern age when childcare is insanely expensive. But also if a child is sick, people can't just drop everything because usually in a lot of households, both parents are working. And so I think it's really interesting that now you can have sick days for people who are grandparents, which is really cool. And then I think there's more flexibility in terms of if you need to take longer term absences if there's if your child is sick for more than two days, things like that. And then the other thing that I thought was super interesting was expanding on the idea of what qualifies as a family. So benefits for family members has now kind of expanded that definition of what a family is to include social parents, so non biological parents and blended families. They'll now qualify for leave and then as well, solo parents can share leave with close family members. So if you're a single parent and you want to share it with your mother who can help you take care of your child. So I think it's just really, really interesting to see this kind of moving forward in history to kind of go like, I think coming from Ireland, the Catholicism runs very, very deep through our society, even though we are progressing in different ways. But I think it's really interesting to see kind of these things coming in to say like, the nuclear family is not the only family anymore and making sure that everybody benefits and gets the benefits that they do. Particularly, you know, we have declining birth rates and a lot of reasons for people maybe to consider not having children. So making sure that there are things in place to make sure that the child can be taken care of can only benefit everybody involved, I think. That's I think sounds very Indian actually, especially the grandchild support days, I assume, because I haven't read the whole article, but the way you said, I think it reminds me of if I have to be in India situation, I probably think if we have to like consider moving back to India, I would go for my parents, obviously. And I think it's very non-dignified because I know the first thing that I saw as a huge cultural differences, people are very nuclear and very autonomous and they're independent. And I started to see how then the relationship between the parents and grandparents are or grandchildren are. And seeing this article, I feel like so the government is actually kind of considering to sort of enforcement, but it's like, you know, considering that there are benefits to support these. I am deeply with my family, right? And I call them every day and I'm so close to my family. Oh, that's amazing. Even though I come from a far, far away distance, but I don't see that in Denmark. Of course, they have parents and they are super, I would say, nuclear. How does it sound for you looking at these articles? Is it painting a picture that we want to do that or? Yeah, I mean, I think Ireland is very similar to Denmark in the sense that I obviously moved away from my parents. And it has only done wonders for our relationship. And while we have a very good, healthy relationship and I talk to my mom every day, usually sarcastic comments or memes, but we do talk every single day. OK. But at the same time, I think there is definitely a... You want to get away from your parents in Ireland. I don't know if it's just like we're a little more small town community or I don't really know why, but I would say one of my friends is he's currently moved back in with his parents to save money so he can move to Japan. And I think it's slowly killing him. So and I do get the impression like my my partner's Danish, she's from Hostelbro. I'm sure I'm butchering that. But say she's obviously an almost, she's been in all those for 10 years. She has a sister who lives 10 minutes down the road from their parents and she has a house and she will probably have a baby soon. And like they're just so settled and she sees their parents all the time, whereas we see them kind of every two or three months. So there's obviously two kinds of people that do exist. But I do think the majority of people in Denmark and in Ireland kind of fall into my camp of like, God, you're wonderful. But I'm just going to go over this way. And so it is like they're like, I obviously love my family, but at the same time, I cannot see them all the time. And that's for the best for everyone. But it's nice to hear that you have such a close relationship with your family. Do you do? Obviously, if you talk to them every day, but you get to go home often? No, I travel at least once a year. But that is also because it's not a very common thing that many Indians do when they have families or when they're married. And they don't often travel. Some do. I'm falling under some people who travel every year. But I would like to wish to invite my parents during summer and I want to go during winter. So I feel like every six months or every three months, I get to see them more. Because I have seen that until 25, 26 have been with them. And unlike the society that we see in Denmark, where the government takes care of everything in India, it's a bit different. We are closely knit and we have to support each other. I don't think the benefits that we get in Denmark is the same like in developing nations like India. So anything that we do, I save up and I invest in my family. And I don't think the government takes care. So that's the mindset behind, you know, for me, if I have to take a leave, that could be for my aging parents or probably my kids, right? And it's interesting when I read this article, I feel like so they do have leave fund for even grandchild. And I think, OK, wow, so they are considering for me, for me, surprising. So I don't know if it's a sarcasm or not, but I feel like would I become an average of our Dane things? That's how my concern is. And I don't want to, honestly, because I can't be completely autonomous by myself at an independent. At some point, I feel like if my parents are really aging and then I feel like, OK, fuck up, let's go back and then fix things. Or, you know, that's why I feel like I cannot be completely transformed into Danefied. I would say it can never be denified. I will be Indian and I could, of course, blend in with other cultures and become a more kind of a mix. The Indianess will never be completely out of me. I see. No, hold on to that with dear life as well. Yes, it's wonderful. Yes, I think we have covered the topics that we are supposed to. But do we have any closing thoughts or remarks, Kathrine? No, I think it was nice to have a nice positive news piece at the end after two heavy articles. But it's been lovely chatting with you and I feel like I learned a good few things from you as well. So thanks so much. It's a pleasure to be part of this first ever podcast with you. And since it's going to be an audio version, I feel like I will not be embarrassed myself seeing it. Seeing my face, so it will only be an audio version. So I'm quite convinced that I will be better off. But yeah, overall, I had a good chat with you and also an interesting take on all these topics. So yeah, until next time, I'll talk to you soon. Yes, and for audiences listening to this podcast, do tune in every week. We have season three, episode number five up and running. It's already been planned. So look forward to that. Enjoy. Bye. Bye.