LWID S3E9 | Rural-Urban Tensions, Proposal to Remove International Voters Rights, Fresher Air in Denmark

Fionn and Kalpita get together this week to discuss the growing imbalance between urban and rural community development, the DF’s (Nationalist Conservative) controversial proposal to restrict voting rights to Danes only, and Denmark meeting its 2030 air quality targets ahead of time. 

In this episode:

1. (02:14) Improvements in Danish air quality
2. (13:25) Rural vs. urban development
3. (26:34) International voting rights are under threat
4. (34:18) Get ready to check your 2024 tax statement!

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Chapters

• 1:33 Intro to this week's topics
• 2:14 Improvement in Danish air quality
• 13:25 Favourism of urban over rural areas
• 26:34 An end to international voting rights?
• 34:18 2024's tax statement is ready

Transcript

0:00

[Music] Hello and welcome to the last week in Denmark podcast. This is season three episode nine. My name is Fionn and I'm here this week with Kalpita. Kalpita, how have you been doing? Hiya, I'm doing okay. I'm very happy that the sun is out for a couple of days at least. Yeah, it's a big difference and actually not today, but I think yesterday was the spring equinox, which means night and day were equal and from here on out for at least the next few months, the days are going to get longer. Yeah, we're getting into daylight saving at the end of this month. Yeah, I mean I'm not looking forward to daylight savings on all the Fafra and making sure my clocks have actually changed or has my phone automatically updated. It's been doing that for years and I still freak out every time, but I'm absolutely looking forward to the longer evenings getting rid of the Danish darkness. And yeah, just, I don't know, it sounds too dramatic to say enjoying life again, but my God, we'll throw out the seasonal depression and in with the... Vitamin D. Yeah, Vitamin D, beers in the sunshine, all the good things that we like about Denmark. We're so happy that all of you are joining us, listening to this podcast together. We're going to dig into the three and if we have some time for it, maybe some more, but the three big things that happened last week in Denmark. Just to give you a brief run through of what those were, we've got some good news that according to the Ministry for the Environment, the air quality has significantly improved over the last couple of years. We have more and more talk that the Danish countryside is feeling left behind in the urban rural divide, as that seems to widen. And then we also have a proposal by Dansk Folkeparti to remove the voting rights of international residents in the upcoming municipal and regional elections. There you have a sneak peek of maybe some of our feelings about that as internationals ourselves, but we'll save those booze for a little bit later on. And let's jump in actually with the good news of the week, which is that the air we're breathing is apparently better than ever. This comes with a report. There's yearly reports that happen unsurprisingly every year. And they have shown that the level of pollution in the air has dropped. And really since the start of measurements in 1990, the number of premature deaths caused by air pollution has decreased by almost 60% from around almost 8,000 in 1990 to about 3,000 in 2023, which is already a much higher number than I would have thought. We had premature deaths caused by pollution in Denmark in 2023. But obviously the trend at the very least is very encouraging that it's going the right way. Absolutely. Now that people are adopting e-cars and everything else is also very, very digitized and electronic. So we're not relying so much on fossil fuels, so to speak. But that also means that we are relying on a lot of rare metals that are being mined. And that's not really a great thing from where I stand. And I am also coming off reading this excellent book by a Reuters reporter talking about how rare metals are being mined. And it also makes sense why Donald Trump has this agenda with a drill baby drill. But then again, it's also a catch-22, you know, whether you use fossil fuels or you mine rare metals to continue being electric. Yeah, I mean, it is definitely something that has formed part of the debate around e-vehicles particularly, but also things like our smartphones and more and more products when we think of, you could say, the Internet of Things or smart products, generally. So many of them rely on things like cobalt or palladium or... Copper. Exactly. And obviously these require extraction from the earth that they require mining. And at least as far as I'm aware, and it sounds like you literally just read the book on it. So maybe you know even more, but many of these mines are done in what's termed boutique mining, which is kind of a shorthand for small unregulated mines where there isn't as much oversight or not as much labor laws in effect, typically in third world countries where workers are being paid appalling wages. And obviously I think, yes, we do need progress. We do need to kind of have the green transition. It's quite obvious that fossil fuels and everything are also doing enormous damage. But it goes to show, I think, that the arc of progress is rarely as clean as we might like it to be. And it's very hard to, I think, be in any way an active participant in the kind of modern world today without somehow our consumption or our actions being tied in with a kind of global web, somehow of not so nice things happening. That went quite depressing quite quickly, but I think... But hey, we are getting fresh, fresh and clean air. Yeah, so let's put all the naysaying aside. We have fresher air. One of the key things, actually, as you mentioned, is that the nitrogen oxides, which are nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide, they are two of the key polluters that we often see related to combustion engines. So diesel cars, for example. Those have dramatically dropped in Denmark, which is great. Those would often be kind of two of the gases that you might associate with things like smog or acid rain, where there is really, really poor pollution. And not as, I assumed, that they are the same as nitrous oxide, which is what the dentist gives you when you have an operation and is known as laughing gas. So I got quite confused when I was reading this story and I thought, oh no, they're reducing the amount of laughing gas in the atmosphere. No wonder, I feel sad. But no, it is a positive. So a lot of these gases we have seen less of and those contribute to less things like hydrocarbons in the air, which is a positive. As you mentioned, one of the big factors for this is things you could say associated with the green transition, so electrical vehicles, more environmentally friendly options in heating our homes as well. But I actually saw something quite interesting, which is from the University of Aarhus, where they were saying one of the reasons why Denmark has comparatively better air compared to other places is actually the weather. So the meteorological conditions that we have in Denmark, I don't know if you've noticed, but it gets quite windy here. And that actually literally helps decrease the concentrations of air pollutants. And this, just to me, I read this actually today and I thought it was super interesting because I don't know if you noticed, but I think it was last week, the air quality all over Denmark and actually much of Northern Europe was really, really bad. And when I was trying to find out why it was associated with a specific kind of weather pressure front that was meant we didn't have as much air movement. And it was literally just keeping the pollutants there where they were and not blowing them away. So there is actually a benefit to windy, windy Denmark. That makes so much sense. I felt so unwell last week. I had to take a break from my gym because I just, I absolutely couldn't find my breath while I was working out and I had a runny nose as well. So it makes a lot of sense that it was the air quality. I thought it was Poland, but my husband convinced me that it's not Poland. I'm not allergic just yet because it's not the season for Poland allergies. But talking about air quality, I also read that one of the things that has brought about this change is the transition from using wood burning ovens to using something that's more sustainable, which I don't know what is to be honest, because I know that in the summerhouse areas, and I know my extended family use, still use wood burning ovens to stay warm. So I may be that memo was not reached to them. I don't know. But that's also one of the things that the report mentions that these lifestyle changes is also causing or contributing to Denmark reaching its sustainability goals, as well as breathing fresh airs, of course. Exactly. And I think that's definitely one you can see over the long, long term. So if you think back to maybe the 60s to 70s, a lot of homes would have been, well, heating their homes with burning coal, burning wood. And you still see that in some summerhouses, probably more wood than coal today, right? But there is something incredibly cozy about being in a summerhouse when actually it's not fully summer yet, but it is still a little bit cold outside in the evening and throwing some logs in the stove of all of the transitions to a cleaner world, for which I'm a real sucker. I really want those all to be a success story. I think that's probably the one where I would have the biggest emotional connection, because it's not like I grew up only being heated or warm, but if we had a coal fire, but I just feel there is something so primal and human about sitting around watching, watching some logs burn. And I totally get that it is bad for the environment. Will I miss it if it is completely phased out? And it's something. It's good for the soul. Yeah. And it's something maybe I do four times a year when we're in the summerhouse or, you know, I'm back home and at my parents and they still have an open fire. But yeah, I would really, really miss it. So obviously, yeah, I mean, people burning wood in their summerhouses is a contributing factor. Some of the reports I looked at stated that it was quite a large contributing factor. But to be honest, the overall reports also said that only about 22 percent of the pollution caused was local and around, I think, 77 percent or thereabouts was kind of termed like foreign or international pollution. And now that's not just people like us being pollution. But it was talking about things like air traffic or like freight traffic going across Denmark. And that was actually something that kind of piqued my interest a little bit because I'm one of the lucky, lucky people who lives pretty much right next door to Copenhagen Airport. And overall, that's very handy sometimes, right? If I'm going to visit family. But one thing I don't love about it is that actually the air pollution around Copenhagen Airport is very high. And even though we're kind of firmly in suburbia and if you go out to the other side of the airport towards Dragør, you're in almost in some cases a more rural setting. The air pollution is on a level with some of the busiest streets in Copenhagen. So like Jose Anderson's Boulevard. So it is like you are walking down there, breathing in everything from all the cars going past. And it is largely down to the the air pain fuels and the kind of micro particles that are that are in those, which I don't love as a neighbor. But again, thinking green transition, there is an opportunity to use cleaner fuels and kind of reduce the air pollution dramatically by that, or at least that's kind of according to the head of transport policy at Green Transition Denmark, who I hope sounds like somebody he knows what he's talking about. There will be a time and I hope I'm not alive then where you will have e-airplanes. They all just run an electricity. So cleaner air, fancy that. I mean, I think we it's time to bring back the zeppelin. It got a bad rep for one incident, but vastly more stylish. And I'm fine with having a leisurely two days air balloon across the Atlantic instead of a cramped seven hour flight. But yeah, I mean, that is the overall story is that despite maybe my neighborhood not getting the best of it, the rest of Denmark is breathing easier than ever before. As yeah, our air quality continues to do better year on year, which obviously is a positive. I mean, yeah, the air quality and the wood burning also just reminds me of the other news that's going around about this big urban and rural rift. I'm not sure if you were aware there was or maybe I can come back to that. But I read that Denmark is segregating and it has been favoring the urban areas far more than the rural areas. And one of the things that the news reports is that it's not about the money. It's about opportunity, influence and belonging. Sounds like every international in Denmark. Does that like a familiar story? Yeah, I mean, I also saw some of these news stories coming out about it. And not only did the experience, you know, talking about having access to opportunity or income, education and that sense of belonging strike a familiar record, as you say, as an international living in a country, you know, not of your your birth. But it also struck me as being a very familiar story, not only about Denmark, but almost every developed country that I have had the pleasure or displeasure of living in or visiting. It seems to be, I don't know if it's necessarily a global trend, but for a huge part of the globe, increasing urbanization and in some cases, depopulation from rural areas is a massive international trend. And I guess Denmark is not alone in this, despite from a bird's eye view being one kind of happy bubble of prosperity. I mean, historically, Denmark has been very good at keeping both the urban and rural very happy, both getting decent amount of attention as they deserve. But I think it's also, I mean, we can't, for example, do without the farmers, you know, I remember a couple of days ago when I was watching the news, there was news about this person called René. Okay. He is known as the Potato Man, apparently. That's and his civil name is René. And he is a central Jutland truck driver who got in trouble because he unloaded several tons of potatoes on the Great Belt Bridge. It's like a high banier calling area. And this happened in 2023. And it's one of the things that the farmers have now claimed that it's, it was done as a protest because of some rules and laws that were not in the favor of farmers. And I think that's, that's important. And it seems like, like a thing that's been going on for a couple of years now, and now we're just seeing the results of it. And it's very unfortunate because I think I come from a place where farmers and rural areas play equal role in the economy of a country. And I do understand that modernization and urbanization is, is bringing this need for putting more attention, investment and industry into the urban areas. But let's not forget that the rural areas is what really makes the foundation of any country's economy. If our farmers, for example, are not supported and rural businesses that are supporting urban businesses are not supported, then I think we are, we are basically standing on one leg. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right in that there needs to be, at least in my opinion, I think we not only here in Denmark, but in many, many countries that have developed to a point where our economies largely, you know, sit in the kind of tertiary sector, so services as opposed to primary manufacturing. We do need to rethink maybe how we treat rural areas and treat farming and treat the stewardship over our land. And I say this as somebody who is a born and raised city boy. But I have, I think, more and more appreciation for my journey to get a piece of food is going to the shop or even just ordering, you know, a bilk order online and hoping it all shows up, which it very typically all does, which is great. But that does, of course, lead to a disconnect from, well, where does your food actually come from? And not only the cost in the literal sense or the economic sense, but of the labor and the care that goes into actually farming and putting foods on people's table and the pride that should be felt by farmers who are doing that. And there has been, you know, throughout Europe, I think particularly, you know, maybe target around Brussels at home of the EU, so to speak, there have been quite a few tractor protests with with farmers blockading. Personally, I think dumping many, many tons of potatoes is like the perfect expression of nonviolent protest. But, you know, it is there is real fear, there is real frustration simmering in rural areas over some of these generally green led initiatives. But I at the same time, while sympathizing with that, I also feel that we do need to recognize that we can't necessarily go on doing exactly as we've been doing in terms of very intensive monoculture land use, both in terms of, well, how does that actually impact on a climate point of view and like a carbon footprint point of view. But we also face a massive, massive biodiversity crisis across Denmark, across Europe, where, you know, huge numbers of kind of keystone species. And it's not the sexy ones, right, but it's it's insects and it's frogs and things that a lot of other creatures require to survive. And that our ecosystem requires to survive. And if we want to keep food on our tables, we require to survive. It is in a state of crisis or even collapse. So I definitely don't have the answers on this, right? Why would I? But I think there needs to be a major, as I see it, almost a revolution in how we think about how we support rural communities to use our land, both for production of food, but also as places to live and places to responsibly care for for our nature, even in the selfish way to make sure that, you know, well, the bees don't die off and we all starve. Well, you're not just you're not just very happy for clean air. You want to clean a planet. I get it. It's very selfish, right? More, more, more. I totally get it. But I mean, coming back to the farmers, you know, it's also it's also their livelihood in some way. And it's also the future of their children and descendants. I remember not very long ago, there was this conversation about taxes on inheritance. I know it's been an issue in the UK, and it's also carried into itself into Denmark as well. At the same time, we can also consider education. A couple of years ago, all educational institutes were going to become centralised. So everything and everybody, all kids were coming into bigger cities like Copenhagen and wherever else people study, I suppose, Roskilde, Aalborg, Aarhus. So kids were going to all of these bigger cities. But not very long ago, then that was again, decentralised. And this, this jump from one solution to the other is also not really helping because it's not only affecting the students' education, but it's also affecting the rural areas in terms of transportation, accessibility to so many other things, and also just the motivation to go through these changes and keep going, you know, as in it's like COVID wasn't enough when these changes are also, you know, becoming an issue. Yeah. And I think one thing that maybe positively has struck me about Denmark. When I first moved to Denmark, I didn't move to a big city. I moved to quite a small city, Tonner, which is in Tonner Kammun, very, very close to the German border, quite close to the west coast as well. And Tonner has around 7,000 people. It was big enough for a H&M, but I remember my father-in-law who lives near a smaller city being very jealous of that fact because his city wasn't big enough for that. One thing that has always struck me that even in small towns in Denmark, you have, at least I see, levels of industry or companies that were maybe founded in that area that have stayed in that area and created jobs and opportunities for, I mean, anyone but particularly the local residents. So if you think about Lego being in Billund or companies like Danfoss or Grundfoss or, you know, Merck also, like they're not all just centralized in Copenhagen. And that's maybe in contrast to some countries where you see, you know, more and more in the UK, for example, they all say, well, everything's in London, right? So if you want a job, you go to London. You know, I think that's less the case here in Denmark. But of course, exactly as you're saying, there needs to be stability, there needs to be opportunity. And the Minister for Food has actually kind of pushed back on some of these arguments that there is an increasing, he's agreed that there is an increasing gap, but he's kind of pushed back and said, well, there's never been more focus on this than there is at the moment in terms of billions being invested in infrastructure, relocation of government jobs. So that kind of decentralization and financing schools in these more sparsely populated areas. But one of the things that really struck me from my time being in Tønder was the house prices. And it's kind of a no brainer that a house in the countryside is probably going to be a bit cheaper than a house in the most expensive neighborhood in the capital city. But the sheer scale of that disconnect really, really struck me. So after about a year in Tønder, my partner got a job in Copenhagen, and we were moving, and we were looking to buy something. And I made the terrible, terrible mistake of while we were looking for houses in Copenhagen, thinking, well, I'll just check what houses go for here in Tønder. And if we maybe had a budget of, I don't know, three or four million Kroner, let's say, for something very small in Copenhagen, there were beautiful, enormous old houses in Tunner going for maybe 800,000 Kroner, just down the road. And visiting some of my colleagues' homes and just seeing like, this is a beautiful home, and it's full of all the designer furniture I would love to be able to spend money on. But probably never will. That was really eye opening. And okay, you can say, well, great, it's easier to afford a home. But it was incredibly difficult then to sell it on. And so that was kind of the risk that was almost factored in. So I had a colleague who, she left our company and moved from the local area to another town. So they put their house up for sale. After maybe a year or so, her partner got her job somewhere else. So they moved again, and they bought another house. And they put their second house up for sale. But they essentially had three houses at that point, because by the time they got the keys for the third one, the first one and the second one were still built in the market. So that really, you know, when you compare that to the housing market in Copenhagen, or even in August, it's not quite as wild, but that's a huge, huge gap. And it absolutely affects people's ability to access greater. Put it this way, people's ability to find employment in areas or move to those areas, or their willingness to, and therefore, you know, brings down the areas a whole, if it's harder to attract talent or retain it. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, just to think of it, who would even go into the country to buy a cheaper house? You know, it's people who either planning to retire or work from home. Nobody who actually has a job is going to move into a country because there's not a convenient transport. And if there was, there is not enough job opportunity in rural areas. And that's, that's where I totally understand where the farmers are coming from. Well, I mean, the government is not really helping with their land or there with all kinds of laws of using pesticides, not using pesticides, so on and so forth. But if there are no job opportunities beyond farming, then where will people go? Because all the money is then concentrated in these pockets where maybe is is trickling down to the rural areas. But then that's, we're not moving forward in that way. And then we have have Dansk Folkeparti, like you said, who's just hell bent on taking our rights away. Yeah, I mean, that was also a smooth, well, it's a smooth way of veering between our topics. But I mean, landing in in Tønder, that was part of what was known as the yellow belt, because it was the stronghold of Dansk Folkeparti. And yeah, I mean, this is the news this week that Mikkel Bjørn, who's the newly elected lead candidate for Dansk Folkeparti in Copenhagen, is calling for an end to voting rights for international residents in municipal elections. So that's like the elections for the communes, but also regional elections. And he came out and said, and this is translated, right? So take it with a paraphrasing pinch of salt, of course. But we believe that it is a prerequisite to vote in Danish elections that you are a Danish citizen. I do not think that's an unreasonable requirement to make of people who want to access Danish democracy. And I think when you compare that to Denmark, having one of the longest and hardest processes, among its certainly among its neighbors, to actually become a naturalized citizen, to me, this is a little bit crazy. I don't know, what do you think, Kalpita? Absolutely. I mean, Denmark is most certainly segregating and the political parties are most certainly giving their vote in segregating it even further and further, as much as they can really, because it's totally against integration. And I would go as far as saying that it is taking away fundamental rights of people who are contributing to the economy to a great scale, if I may dare say so. But it's also an attempt to tilt votes of non-citizens to the left, making it even more difficult and I'm assuming more difficult and more concerning for internationals to continue to lay their roots in Denmark and get anything good out of it. They do want talent and they do want people to come to Denmark and the best of the best talent, but they don't want to do anything either to retain them or to give them absolutely any fundamental rights. Yeah, so I mean, I think this is, as I see it, there's probably a little bit of context around it when you look at the fact that there are upcoming elections and the last few set of elections have not been great for Dansk Folkeparti. They kind of had it maybe a heyday around 2013, 2015. In the municipal elections in 2013, they got like 255 seats, which was a big jump after having a big jump the previous four years, but then in 2017, they lost about 30 of them. And then in 2021, so the last time we had elections, they lost 130 of them. So they went from kind of a high point of 255 down to 91. So that's a very big jump. And then in the regions, yeah, they went from 21 seats to six seats. So they lost the majority of them as well. And if I was to maybe look at this critically, what I would say is, okay, you have a party that really made its name or built a lot of success on anti-immigration or immigration skeptic, you could say, policies and behavior. And that lunch has kind of been eaten, if you think about it. Some policies were actually adopted by parties like the Social Democrats to kind of maybe in an attempt to shut out the far right and not to agree. But we also saw other writer's center or far right parties like Democrats, Democrat now take some of those same kind of lines and almost be more successful with it or more relevant with it. So I see this as a party that had more of a heyday, has seen it's not necessarily its polling numbers collapse, but over the last few elections, it's seen its seat numbers really collapse in a very dramatic way. And now there's some upcoming elections. And well, let's get our name in the news. And we've put our best scientists behind it and shock our we've come up with, you know, well, foreigners are the problem. And I don't think that would be too surprising hearing some of the things that a dense party have come out with, including in 2017, that there's too many foreigners running for the elections. So we should also put an end to that. Now, this is one party and I mean, quite notably in the radio show where Mikkel Bjørn was saying this, there was also Pernille Rosenkrantz-Theil from the Social Democrats, who was completely opposed to this. And basically saying that, you know, you shouldn't need to do this, it should be a right of people to vote. And of course, there is a difference between voting in your local elections and voting for the Folketinget, the overall parliament. And there you do need to be a Danish citizen. And she pointed out quite rightly that ultimately, the parliament can make decisions about the municipalities. So there is a level above the municipalities where it is dangerous citizens only who can vote. And it's a kind of different set of rules that will be decided upon in one and in the other. So you and I, we are not going to be voting to decide Denmark's foreign policy. But we might be deciding who's going to collect the bins, who's going to be repairing the roads. And I think as you know, the person living in that neighborhood or living that commune, paying taxes in that commune, that's probably something that we should have the right to do. Absolutely. But it makes sense that Folkeparti is desperate. And it's a rule since Donald Trump that if you want to get attention, you say the most absurd, the most attention-grabbing thing. And say the most attention-grabbing thing as many times as you can. So you become the conversation. And the more you become the conversation, the more attention is on you. And the possibility of being top of the mind recall is also very high. So good on Folkeparti, learning from the foreign counterparts, full points there. Not a great start though. Yeah, it is. And I can say personally, I think the whole reasoning behind the statement is absurd. If you want a society where people who come to Denmark actually integrate and they become Danish, as opposed to having, well, this is all the people who live in Denmark and we have the Danes here and then all the internationals here and they don't integrate and they are a drain in the society or whatever you think. Well, if you want people to integrate, give them reason to feel ownership of where they actually live. Give them reasons to get involved, even in something as simple as casting a vote in local politics. All of that helps play into an identity of belonging just like we are talking about with the kind of urban rural divide. And so as absurd as I think all of this idea or this statement is, you do have to hand it to them as you say because, well, all publicities go publicity and here we are talking about them. Exactly. We spent about 10, 15 minutes just giving them so much attention. Exactly. But I think good for listeners to know that this is a proposal by a party that is not in government. It is not something that right now seems to have any danger of coming into law and immediately saw opposition from the lead party in government. So I wouldn't worry too much yet or I wouldn't worry too much about this. But these are some of the kind of policies that are being battled about by some of the parties in Denmark. Yeah, although you never know. Now that Trump has come in and he's causing a revolution, I think everyone is very motivated to cause revolutions, which I hope not because I think most of Europe and Scandinavia is doing a very, very good job. We are in all of Scandinavia's in the top 10 happiest countries as well. And it's also the season of getting a tax money back, which is relief for some and not for others, I guess. These are probably paying. Have you looked into your taxes, Fion? I will have to admit that officially, I think it is from Monday that the system is open, but you are able to actually log on to the SCAT website and preview it, which is helping them test the system, as they say. And I did enter an online queue of more than 187,000 people and I did wait for more than an hour because curiosity killed the cat and I was the captain in this instance. So I did have my laptop open while we were eating dinner and told my kid, "No, no, no, don't refresh the page. I'll lose my space in the queue." I don't know if I would or not, but I was very paranoid. But eventually, yeah, I got down to number one and was led in and was able to check my taxes for this year. Wow, just an hour's wait. I think it was a little bit more, but it wasn't quite the... For a long time, I just had more than an hour and I was like, "That's a very good way of telling me that it could be, you know, 61 minutes. It could be eight hours." But yeah, it wasn't too bad. And yeah, I got to see if I needed to owe money or get some money back, but I won't reveal here exactly how much. But you know, this is also a very high season for fraud. A lot of people get phone calls, emails, saying that they're contacting them from SCAT or Danish tax authorities, which is all untrue because the Danish tax authority would not contact you for absolutely anything. And if there is anything, it'll come to your e-box or your digital post where you should only receive legit communication. Yes. So I think maybe if we're going to wrap up on that note, we have clean air, we have generally happy Denmark, and don't click on any links that say it's from SCAT unless it's coming through your e-box because then you will hopefully remain happy and not be the victim of a phishing email or a tax scam. And on that note, we will call it for this week in Denmark. Thank you so much for listening. You'll check out the newsletter, the sub-stack, and our socials as well. That's all from me, Fionn, and my co-host, Kalpita. Thank you. Bye-bye.