Last Week in Denmark

Danish Road Pricing, Rural Revival & Danish Death Doulas: LWID S5E15

• Season 5 • Episode 15

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Road charges, rural Denmark & taboo talk: Fionn and Katie, joined by guest Kay Xander Mellish, look at road pricing, farm conversions and Denmark’s awkward conversations about death and salaries, asking who can afford to drive, how rural spaces should be reused and why some subjects still feel hard to say out loud. 

Topics: 

(03:19) Denmark`s Driving Tax

(13:47)  Rural Reuse 

(22:13) Danish Taboo Talks

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Fionn
Hello and welcome to the Last Week in Denmark podcast, where each week we talk through some of the top stories that happened last week in Denmark. We focus on how they impact internationals living here. So if that sounds like you, then as always, welcome home. You're in the right place, and we're so glad to have you here.If you're a first time listener, you should know that we have four full seasons under our belt, ready for you to explore, and we have new episodes launching every week during this, which is season five. I'm Fionn O'Toole, and joining me this week for Episode 15 of Season 5 is my wonderful co-host, Katie Burns. Hi Katie.

Katie
Hi, Fionn. 

Fionn
And I am really pleased to announce that we're also joined to speak by a very special guest who is none other than author and podcaster, Kay Xander Mellish. Kay is the voice behind How to Live in Denmark [00:01:00] podcast, Denmark's longest running English language podcast, and she's also the author of the new book, The Danish Year: 12 Months of Customs, Quirks and Rhythms of Everyday Life. Kay, it is absolutely wonderful to have you on the pod. 

Kay Xander Mellish
So fun to be here. I'm so happy to get the invitation. 

Fionn
Brilliant. Well, every week we explore a few topics, and this week we're going to be looking at what could become the next big shift in how driving is taxed. We'll look at whether proposals from the Liberal Alliance Party could make it easier to turn cow sheds into conference halls. And finally, we're gonna be looking at shifting attitudes around some cultural taboos in Denmark.
Before we get going though, we'd love to just ask you one thing. If what we're talking about resonates with you this week, please share this podcast with somebody that you know. We're here to help internationals in Denmark stay informed and feel connected. So thanks a million for helping us reach more people who are just like you. Now, I'm going to mess this up and I apologize, but Kay and Katie, it is brilliant to have you both here, and I'm really looking forward to, uh, to chatting. But how are you guys doing? I feel like it's finally spring, right?

Kay Xander Mellish
It is spring, and it's absolutely wonderful.

Katie
Oh my God. There's sunshine. You can see it in people. People are kinder, there's more people outside. Everyone wants to exercise. I don't, but I appreciate the people do. It's such a shift. It's so nice. But actually it is horribly windy in Aarhus today.

Fionn
Also here in Copenhagen. I, uh, I was taking my son to, to judo earlier and as maybe a spoiler for one of the first topics we're gonna talk about. I don't own a car. So we have one of those, um, you know, the the cargo bikes that you put kids in and you put a little tent over them and look very smug that you're doing your place for the environment. But that little tent basically acts like a sail. And I I was struggling to get about 10 kilometres an hour, and it was very embarrassing as children on their non e-bikes were, were going past me. So, yeah, I mean, just the other weekend I saw the first swallow arriving into Denmark and that made me feel like it's summer and then the wind kind of knocked me for six. So it's still Denmark. 

Katie
It might have killed the swallow as well. It's very intense at the moment, just like a frump. 

Fionn
I hope not. I hope not. It would be pretty big shame if they made it all the way up from Africa, only to get knocked out by the wind on Amager. But with all that said, we should probably dive into the topics that we have this week. And the first topic we're going to look at is the new Danish word I think actually that we can give to our listeners as a Danish word of the week this week. And that is vejafgifter, which is road pricing or road taxing. And really this is a story about the price it costs to drive a passenger car in Denmark and some new discussions or proposals and tests actually, or trials you could say that have been carried out to look at, instead of just paying taxes through fuel and registration fees or fixed charges, how drivers could actually pay more based on when, and how much they drive.Now obviously there's a lot to this story, but I was curious, have either of you come across this bar, you know, researching for the the podcast this week? Has it popped up in your lives already? As a non-car owner, this was news to me.

Kay Xander Mellish
I'm like, you Fionn. I have a driver's license, but I have never owned a car. I love to drive in the US, where you have those big open roads through the the desert and that sort of thing. But in Denmark, I don't think it's fun to drive. You know, the bicyclists are always like the little mosquitoes. They're coming all from all different directions. here I'm the bicyclist and, cars are just an annoyance. But I don't like this idea for the law because let's face it, some people need a car: old people, disabled people, people with small children, people who use big equipment in their work. I live next door to a hospital and they were suggesting recently that people should take the bus to the hospital. That's okay for a blood test, but, but if I'm sick, I wanna be in a car or maybe an ambulance. 

Fionn
Yeah, depending on how sick, right? 

Kay Xander Mellish
Yeah. 

Fionn
I understand that completely. We have two small kids. We had a car. The car did not [00:05:00] like being a car anymore, so we got rid of it a few years ago. And generally it's been fine. We live in suburban Copenhagen, right? We've lived beside a metro. We live beside a train station.
We have bus routes. We're really lucky in that regard. But three years ago, my daughter was being born and she was, to be delivered in Hvidovre hospital. And that meant taxis back and forth, it would've been taken nearly an hour and a half, two hours by public transport. Generally I'm very very pro taking cars off the road where we can. But I do think that there are many people for whom it is less of an option than it is for me. And there's many people, especially outside of major cities, and you don't have to go that far outside of major cities where the public transport that you would hope is a viable alternative just isn't there. 

Katie
Yes, coming in from Aarhus. I think often when they bring in these things about car taxes and how do we charge people, it's kind of making us be more conscious of how much we're driving or how do we make sure we're being, you know, reasonable in terms of, we can take the bus, we can take the metro, but this feels more like making being able to drive something only the rich can do. No one is going like, God, I'd love to sit in a car for an hour. They're doing it because they have to. Aarhus is a major city. We're the second biggest city in Denmark, but our public transport is horrendous. I refuse to take it wherever I don't have to. I walk. I have a reputation within my friends that I walk everywhere because if it's less than an hour, I will walk because I hate the bus. My partner is a teacher. She teaches in two places. One is Rønde, which is about a 25 drive, from where we live. And the other is Randers which is similar, a 25-minute drive but in the other direction. She has to leave three hours early because either the bus or train will be late. Because of the timings of her classes versus the timings when the buses should arrive, she basically has to plan her whole day to make it in for one class. To then teach that one class because it's so unreliable. I did not realize how bad the bus was because in Dublin, the bus is horrendous also. But once I heard about someone who had to use it every day for work, still mad about it. but she uses it every day to get to work and it's so unreliable. I can't imagine if like, again, you needed to get to a hospital so we to go with a taxi because who knows if the bus is even gonna be there. 

Fionn
Exactly. 

Kay Xander Mellish
Yeah, it's fine for a blood test or a mammogram, isn't it? But if you need to be at the hospital urgently, you're gonna want a car.
 
Katie
That's my, my partner is pregnant at the moment. She's due in August. And that's a big question for us is how do we get the baby home? And then we're like, okay, we live in Aarhus Ø, which we got in when it was a construction site, but it's become very expensive. And basically if we had a car, which yes, it would be convenient. We don't really need one. But even just to rent it so that we know, like for the month when she's due, we'd have that comfort of being able to get in and outta the car. It would cost as much as our rent to get a parking space to be able to have it. So it's just not an option for us. But then if we wanted to get the bus and be good citizens, we have to get a bus to a bus to the hospital and hope it lets us off near the right exit. Because our hospital is so huge that it has different branches. You have a bus that goes to like number 14, and then another bus that goes to number 12 because they're so far away. So it's just like how-- like, like there's no room for error and we're all like stressed and terrified and trying to figure out what to do with the baby. Like the only option is a taxi then. So in those kind of cases, I'm like. Now if I had a car to just feel comfort and safe in being able to take my partner to have her baby, which like we need babies, there's a birth decline, I need to pay for the parking space. I need to pay for the car. I need to pay for the car insurance, but I also need to pay for the kilometers to the hospital? That's insanity.

Fionn
Yeah, I think, we've all had quite, I don't wanna say emotional reactions, but I think, all. of our reactions have come from places of feeling. And I don't mean to, subtract from there the, the validity at all. I, I think like all of these things you're saying are completely valid. And a huge part of it is the, the security, right?Whether it's the security of being able to get to work [00:09:00] on time or knowing that your entire day isn't going to be dominated by one missed bus because public transport isn't reliable. Or exactly as you mentioned, and I feel this completely as well, the idea of, you know, moving around with, stressful situations like healthcare or like pregnancy, or taking a baby home. And I've experienced that and it's gonna be stressful no matter what. So adding in unreliable public transport to that is, is nightmarish. I'd love to take it back to the actual study for a second because this study was carried out by DTU and Sund&Bælt. And they did find this actually did reduce traffic quite a lot. In the biggest city center zones, traffic fell by between 12 and 22%. And in suburban zones, it was a bit less, which you might expect, but it was between 7 and 11%. And charges during rush hour times had a much stronger effect. So the hope is that this would reduce congestion. You could argue maybe this is attractive for a few reasons. traffic is not evenly distributed. So maybe the fact that you're taking more cars off the road makes the buses more reliable. That could be an angle that, that you look at it that way. But I thought, what I thought was quite interesting was the amount of pushback that came from mayors of different kommunes, and many of them are what you would call more like suburban kommunes rather than really rural kommunes, because I don't think anybody could rightly argue that if you live in rural Denmark there's absolutely no need for a car ever; you can just take public transport anywhere. I think anybody who's been in rural Denmark will quite clearly tell you that that's just not the case, but they were mayors like Dragør kommune, Hvidovre kommune. So these are part of Greater Copenhagen, but they're obviously not exposed in the same way to just how tight the kind of web of S trains and, and metros are when you're in the city center. And I thought the, what was interesting was how much the reactions, across political [00:11:00] parties actually ended up being quite similar, which is like, there is a kernel of a really good idea in here, but the infrastructure to be in place for, for example, people in Hvidovre kommune to come and you know, drop or maybe they're, they're coming from further out, but if the, a metro goes to a Hvidovre hospital, for example, well they need to be able to drop their car somewhere so that they can then take the metro. And that does mean actually building parking spaces for a kind of park and ride model, which just aren't there today. So I think obviously we can, have a emotive reactions or feelings about this, and I think that's-- I don't say a emotive to, uh, mean that they're not as valid as a logical reaction to put it that way. But I think there is just such a, I don't know if no disconnect is the right word, but, putting the cart before the horse, if we can say it that way. Whereas there is, I think, a lot of benefits and a lot of good ideas to doing something like this, but we need to make sure it actually works for people rather than for a statistic on, yes, we reduce traffic in this test. 

Katie
I do see though a big difference between, you're obviously in Copenhagen and I see it working really-- like it, it could work really well and like that with obviously some investment in infrastructure like in Hvidovre there needs to be a car park so that the neighborhoods don't become a car park, but in Aarhus or Odense because it's like there's just so much that would need to be done it's not realistic anytime soon for those big but still smaller cities. 
Fionn: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I, I was in Aarhus quite recently, on two occasions and on one occasion we were off, uh, visiting friends a little bit outside of Aarhus and they were lucky enough to live on the Letbanen so it was really easy. And then we were visiting some family who-- I would feel like they live in the equivalent area that I live right for, for Copenhagen, so not very far outside-- but it was taking a bus and then another bus and then walking for 20 minutes. I think if that doesn't raise the question that, you know, is this kind of the future of Danish transport or just a policy that kind of sounds clever until you think about it, uh, a little bit deeper. I don't know what is. 

Kay Xander Mellish
I think Danish people like their cars. I disagree with Katie. She said nobody wants to be stuck in traffic. I think a lot of people like their cars, particularly in Jutland. Yeah, I think they get a lot of joy out of driving and for some people with busy lives, that is their only time all day they can be alone. I think they enjoy that time. 

Katie
That's interesting, I never thought of that.

Fionn
That's, that's a fair point. I have to say there's times when I enjoy a longer commute than a shorter one, because it is my chance to read a book or listen to a podcast such as an award-winning last week in Denmark podcast just to, uh, throw that out there. But I think I think we've all have strong feelings about this, but I think we're all kind of leaning in the same direction. So maybe it's time that we look at, uh, one of our other topics this week, and I think you know, the idea of drivers versus not drivers-- that's a story we saw a lot in Denmark, particularly around the local elections, if you were looking at [00:14:00] Copenhagen or, or some of those municipalities. It really, really played out. And I think our next topic is also kind of a very Danish story. At the heart of it, it is about a farmer, called Anders Krogsgård from Lemvig who wants to transform some former cow sheds, on his family farm and some other facilities as well into things like, conference-- I wouldn't say a conference centre-- but a, a conference hall or an event space.
He also wants to open up, ceramics workshops and essentially transform what has been purely an agricultural location, into something that maybe has multipurposes and could tap into a tourist market. And I think on paper that sounds like a very clever reuse that will say like, okay, let's take a old rural building, give it new life, bring people into the countryside. But the story and the the challenge is that there are planning laws, that can make these kind of changes much more difficult in Denmark. Then, for example, just across the pond in, in [00:15:00] Sweden. What do you guys think about this? Is this another urban rural divide that is, is overplayed or is this a real real issue in rural Denmark? 

Kay Xander Mellish
I have no problem with making these conversions. I'm a keynote speaker and I frequently go to these conference centers. It's a place to get out of the office and maybe spend two or three days together talking about business problems. I think it's very refreshing for people and quite frankly, a lot of rural Denmark is poor. We're not talking about taking agricultural land away. We're talking about converting buildings to conference centers. I think it's a great idea for both the, the local locality and to get more people from the cities into the countryside.
Katie: Yeah. I don't see any downside to this. I, I obviously understand the fears that maybe this would make people move away from farming, but if it's not working as a farm, isn't it great that they have another option to do something else? And like that people are obsessed with the idea of a sommerhus, so like this is just the same but for [00:16:00] businesses to go, like wedding venues or like in the article about ceramic kind of workshops in the middle of the countryside-- like that sounds adorable. I was looking up the names, to be like when, when is this going to happen when will it be announced? And also I just, I love, I love how Danish it is. That it, that I love how do it in Sweden, so why can't we do it here? And it's like, it's a really good point. I think this has happened a lot throughout Ireland as well and what has kind of come out of it is very contained places. So you can have a wedding venue but everything is in the the one place, so the wedding happens in that in that place, everyone can stay in that place. Because farms are huge properties and you can make them look and match the world that's around them. So you have this beautiful countryside retreat where everyone can go and everyone can stay there. Similar with kind of a corporate retreat of you know, instead of going for a work-cation where everyone is drinking for three days in a cabin, like go to one of these lovely places and do ceramics together. That would free up your brain so much more. And I feel like Danish people would be so into it. 

Fionn
Yeah, I think, on the face of it, I I generally agree. I think, If you've lived in Denmark or read much about Denmark, you've probably heard the term the rotten banana. and that is that stretch of Denmark that goes generally down the, the west coast into Sønderjylland and kind of across, the southern islands as well. And it's not a particularly nice term, and I'm sure residents there aren't fond of it, but it does lie in contrast to the whiskey belt, right, which sits north of Copenhagen. And well, you can kind of guess which one is the, the rich one or which one is the poor one. And this is definitely, I don't think a Danish issue solely. I think there are many countries that are kind of having a struggle around rural life and, and how rural life is transforming. And many of the traditional aspects of rural life are disappearing and, and people don't necessarily want them to. And I think it is important that we enable people to live a rural life rather than just saying, well, you know, move to the city and let farms be taken over by one huge corporation. The one question that I've maybe put with this is. Is it a risk that if we make it too easy, the countryside slowly kind of turns into a patchwork of holiday rentals and small businesses and event venues and the actual, I don't know, want to say necessarily the, the genuine nature of the Danish rural spirit or, you know, actual farming kind of gets worn away.
Kay Xander Mellish: I don't know. I think that's rather unfair to the people who live there. Like, stay cute so we can visit you. I, I don't go for that. So you were talking about rural property right now, if I had money right now, I don't, buying property on Falster and on Loland because that tunnel from Denmark to Germany is opening in 2030. There's gonna be a lot of traffic through there. Not just Danish, but Swedish. You know, it ends at Rødbyhavn. There's gonna be a lot of Germans coming up. There's gonna be a lot of Swedes and Danes coming through. Look what happened to Malmo when the Øresund bridge opened. It totally... 

Fionn
Yeah, exactly.

Kay Xander Mellish
 ...it blossomed. I think there's a people interested in investing in these areas, which right now are quite frankly, very poor.

Fionn
Yeah. So I have family living in, in rural Denmark, obviously the, the in-laws rather than, than my own. But, one thing that I've really noticed, which has been I think a very interesting change is, obviously if you look at property prices there and you look at property prices in the bigger Danish cities, it's, it's not even like a linear progression. It seems to be like exponentially, more to buy in in a city. Traditionally you've had a lot of, seasonal workers, who've come. And I've seen a shift in uh, some of the towns that they live in where you've had people coming in to work on, on farms over the summers, coming typically from, from Eastern Europe, but they are actually settling in many of these places now, having saved up money. Often some of 'em have transitioned into working in, their retirement homes because a lot of these towns are also, they would have a much older age profile as well. And they're actually buying up some of this cheap property. And to me that's a wonderful way of actually, rather than [00:20:00] just treating, a group of internationals as, okay, they're seasonal workers, but they can't necessarily make a, make a home or a life here. Actually seeing that revitalizing communities, and I think you're absolutely right about some of these projects, like the, the bridge and tunnel to Germany, they will have similar revitalizing effects as well. One thing that I thought was kind of interesting from the political aspect of this is that Liberal Alliance have kind of been championing this story, and pushing for further changes and loosening of the rules, kind of as a, a freedom to grow argument. But I did notice that it was actually only in late 2024 that there were changes made to the planning act. And this was done with the government parties at the time, but also with support by the conservatives I believe it was Dansk Folkeparti as well, and Liberal Alliance actually supported many of the aspects of these changes. And these feel like already address much of the story around this issue. So actually providing more freedom for local and [00:21:00] urban rural development, so that, yeah, there's been more freedom to do actually exactly as we've been talking, also to establish more summer houses in coastal areas and provide more and better opportunities to use redundant buildings for tourism purposes. So maybe it hasn't gone far enough, but I do somehow question, after we've just had these changes kind of being discussed and being brought in, that, is this also a case of maybe a political party trying to point score with voters?

Kay Xander Mellish
Yes, that would be very unusual for a political party to try to point score with voters. They don't do that. 

Fionn
It would, right? 

Kay Xander Mellish
I'm most interested in the fact that the Liberal Alliance is one of, their, uh, you know, they've the, the, they call the conservative boy band of, I think it's four young guys who just got elected. One of them confessed on a podcast this week that he dyes his hair blonde. He's like 25, he dies his hair blonde. 'cause he thinks it makes him look better. And he, he does look great, but I think it's very bold of him to confess this. And it was the from Liberal Alliance, Mads Strange. 

Fionn
They're competing with the Borgernes Parti for, political scandals. Right? And maybe, maybe this brings them into the news. And with that, I think we can start to move towards the final topic for today. And in the words of the Great American Benjamin Franklin to the great Frenchman, Jean-Baptiste Le Roy. In this world, nothing can be said to be certain except death and taxes. And I feel like that brings us pretty much towards what we're gonna talk about, which isn't in fact death and taxes, but it is talking about death and talking about salaries. So that is the best transition that I could come up with. And there's kind of a number of stories that I think on the, the face of 'em maybe are, are quite different. But there is a red thread between them. There have been some stories this week or are kinda coming out around the rise in interest in something called Death Doulas in Denmark, and we can touch on that, I think what that is in a moment, but also the challenge that many people have in terms of discussing money and, and salaries. And I think in both of these, the, articles, if you read them, they, they talk a little bit about, you know, cultural shifts and yeah, I think these are two things that many people find very difficult to discuss or confront. I'd love to kind of hear from, from either of you, you know, do we think in Denmark, are we good at talking about these things or are these some taboos that we just tend to avoid until we absolutely have to discuss them.

Katie
I would not say Danish people are good at talking, in general. I think you really kind of have to pull it out of them in the first place. I was surprised, I think I expected Denmark because they seem more chill and kind of like progressive-- I was really surprised about the salary. But that's still a thing of like people don't really talk about their salaries, but you definitely like sense that that same awkwardness that like you get anywhere else talking about salaries. Similarly with death, I don't feel like they are-- even though they, they work so much on kind of emotional maturity and in schools there's so much topic of like, let's discuss these themes. Let's really understand them and really like helping at all ages that they process their emotions and kind of grow up to be healthy human beings. I find a lot of Danish people I meet. Shut down conversations about death because they're too scared to confront it. That's normal. I think that's a global thing, but I think it's so so important that we have these conversations for so many reasons. This came up in work for some reason this week, but one of my colleagues, her, her mother passed or died actually. That's another topic of what words do we use. you know, you say passed, 'cause we don't wanna say died, but she did die, a year ago. And basically her mother had cancer. Her mother was told that the cancer spread and that it wasn't gonna get better, and the mother made the decision not to tell her or her siblings how sick she was. And obviously she wanted to protect them, but they didn't find out how sick she was until afterwards. And we kind of had this discussion of like, you can see where the mother was coming, but the best of intentions and not wanting to drag everybody down with her and making it her own burden. But she took away the chance for her children to, first of [00:25:00] all emotionally process what's actually happening and prepare for when she's gonna die. But it also meant they missed the chance for all those important questions of, what do you want your legacy to be? How do we make you as comfortable as possible when you're ready to go and die? How? Like, what do you want that to look like? But also what happens in terms of inheritance, she has multiple children. If she has anything to leave behind, they now have to deal with that on top of their mother suddenly dying and, I feel like those are the conversations where a death doula is so, so important because it's such a big thing that everybody is going to experience at some point, but we never get any tools to be able to kind of deal with it, or even to comfort our friends and family when it happens to them. I've had a big loss in my life as well, and the amount of stupid shit that people said at the funeral, and it was just like, I didn't hold it against anybody. 'Cause I did the same I said all the same stupid things. I'm so sorry. Isn't it so wonderful that you had such a wonderful time with them before? It's all [00:26:00] terrible. And then you're like, I wanna check in with you, but I don't wanna remind you that someone has died. But obviously if you lose someone close to you, you think about them every single day, so it's a very strange... And actually I actually think in Harry Potter, there's a really good representation of this. I don't remember the name of the creature. I'm not a big fan, I'm so sorry. But in I think the fifth movie, there's a creature that you can only see. If you've been around death or you've seen someone die, and I think there's something to that, that only when you lose someone, do you see how insane it is that we have no tools, no talks, no discussion about what is important with death, what are the important conversations, what are the important ways to take care of yourself? I went to actually a special therapist. Um, it was after my brother died and his one job was to make sure I didn't ruin my life because for the first year after you lose someone, it's really tempting to do impulsive behavior. So whether that's to move country again, change job, end a relationship, anything like that. So his one [00:27:00] job was to be like, deep stay calm, not do anything insane. And honestly, it was the most helpful therapy I've had in a long time. 

Fionn
That's fascinating. I obviously familiar with the concept of therapy, but not necessarily in that kind of, specific role, but it makes a lot of sense. Kay. I think you've written a book about it, right? You're something of an expert in, you know, Danish customs and, and, and culture. Before reading this article, had you heard of the term tattoo doula, where do you think it kind of fits in, in, into Danish society? 

Kay Xander Mellish
 I have never heard of the term death doula, and my favorite Danish expression for death is he set aside his wooden shoes. So my father set aside his wooden shoes. When I set aside my wooden shoes, I hope this will happen. Katie has, I think, a different circle than me. I live across the street from a hospice, so I see people on their final days all the time, and I see their relatives taking them out for what might be their last chance for some sunshine or some last chance to hear the birds. One thing that I really like about this particular hospice is it's in an old building and the windows open. I went to a planning meeting for a new hospital and all the windows were glued closed. This was right before COVID. I think now they have a little, uh, thing, but I said to the architect, you, you need to be able to open the window. This could be the end for somebody. They want some fresh air. They wanna hear the birds, they wanna feel the sunshine. And he was like, well, we've got a very good HVAC system. We have good air conditioning. No, it's not the same. When you're in your final moments, you want the best the world has to offer, which is nature. 

Fionn
Absolutely right. And maybe his comment is, is almost, a testament to why this is becoming a trend, right. I many, many, many years ago in a, in another lifetime almost, I studied archeology and ancient civilizations, and one thing that really stuck out to me is just how early it was as you know, early humans, we began burying people and actually having some form of funeral. 
And what, I thought was really interesting was the amount of work that ancient people put into funerals and put into decorating graves. Well, one of the reasons of course for this is that a funeral is not actually for the dead person. It is for the living who remain, a very grim sentence. But, uh, it is for those who, who come after them, and remain after them. And a funeral typically, right, it's... Obviously, now we do it in different ways, but there are typically some quite standardized processes that you go through with it, and it is ultimately kind of a set of cues for those who remain to reorient themselves to understand what is my place now in the family, right, when this person is gone. How can I start working through some of those emotions, for example, and giving kind of a gateway or or stages to do that. And, obviously it's, it's not the only part of that process, but it is a process that has endured, right, for hundreds of thousands of years. And, uh, it's really was playing on my mind when I read this, this article because, this is maybe taking the process a little bit earlier and later, and I think that's a really good thing. And you know, there are questions that are, are kind of raised around this as well in terms of, this not necessarily a regulated area. So right now maybe anybody can call themselves, a death doula. Should this be something that's regulated? Should it be something that is left to a hospice or, you know, trained nurses? But ultimately I think the idea actually that we have people in society who are more dedicated, or more people maybe who are dedicated, that's be better way of putting for helping us navigate the process of death because it is, as Katie said, a process that we will all go through and understanding, well, what actually does the person who is at the center of it want as well? What is really important to them? And as you mentioned, Kay, that could be hearing the bird song right on your last day, could be such a comfort to somebody. And actually having somebody that can help take those frank discussions and I think, you know, be part of that process, [00:31:00] but still somehow a little bit aside from that process, they're not a direct family member. They'll probably grieve that person, but not in the same way. And maybe that's a bit easier also for the person who is to, uh, to, say things right to them. They, they know that that person doesn't have yeah, a skin in, the game, in the, in the will or anything like that as well. So I think it's a it's a really interesting trend that we're seeing. And yeah, maybe it, it does mark a cultural shift in, in Denmark. 

Kay Xander Mellish
I just wanna make the quick point, Fionn, that the Red Cross does have a service, to have someone with you when you die. If you are alone, if you, for whatever reason, have no family members or don't want them with you, there is someone who will come and hold your hand, and you can volunteer for this as well. 

Katie
That's nice. 

Fionn
I think that's a wonderful, wonderful call to action actually for, for our listeners if, well obviously if you're going through something, but I think if, uh, you're looking for, for a way to volunteer that's probably, maybe sound morbid, but one of the greatest gifts you could ever give somebody right, is to, to be beside them and make sure that they don't leave the world alone. 

Kay Xander Mellish
In particular, if you come from a country that maybe has some other immigrants here that may be in their last moments, they wanna be with someone who can speak their language and take them into the next world. If you could volunteer for that, that would be a great comfort for them. 

Fionn
Absolutely. So Katie, I mean, you mentioned you don't feel like it's easy for Danes to talk anyway, but maybe particularly not about salaries. I don't think that's unique at all to Denmark. But Kay, I think you, you come from a, a different continent. How does that kind of reflect your own experience, either there or here? 

Kay Xander Mellish
Well, Americans love to talk about money. We like money, but I'd want to point out that there is actually a form on Reddit called DK Lønseddel or Denmark Payslip, where people share their salary slips, has 76,000 users. So, you can see what a pedagogue makes, what a software engineer makes, what a nurse makes, what a zookeeper make? Zookeepers do not make very much money, I learned. It's fascinating to compare and have people talk and people will actually request if they're thinking about, maybe working, let's say at [00:33:00] Novo. Can I see a salary slip from a Novo person at this level or whatever? Of course, people black out their personal information, but I love this transparency. As you can see, first of all, a lot of the inequality developing in Denmark, the software engineer makes a lot more money than the nurse. And just the transparency, I think is a good idea. 

Fionn
I completely agree with you. I kind of have it as a, a personal rule to myself that I always wanna be transparent with my, with my colleagues in work about what I make because I don't think it's either anything to be embarrassed about or, you know, I don't think it helps anybody except the HR department keep costs down if, if I do, and I would rather help my good colleagues. And actually in the last two, three jobs that I've worked, being open about that and just having, you know, conversations around it, i've seen colleagues then step up and say, okay, but then I, I feel like I should be paid more and, and get it. So I would definitely encourage people as well have those conversations. And they don't have to be, you know, transparent does not necessarily mean in public, in front of the entire, entire company, but, have those coffee breaks, you know, be open with that and, and, and help your colleagues get the pay they deserve. 

Kay Xander Mellish
As a man, I am very happy that you are doing that, Fionn, because I think too many women in particular, are afraid to talk about money and then they don't get what they deserve. So I love the fact that as a man, you're transparent. You see how much you're getting, and then the other colleagues, whatever they identify as, can go after what they feel they deserve. 

Fionn
Absolutely. That's probably. the, the, the part I left unspoken in that. But it, I think it particularly helps female colleagues. It helps younger colleagues and I think it also really helps international colleagues as well.So, I think with that we are probably getting to the time where we need to wrap up this, this episode. It's been absolutely wonderful talking to you. So thank you so much to Katie and to Kay. Kay. I would love if you could just tell our audience where people can find your podcast and of course, where they can buy your new book, the Danish Year: 12 Months of Customs, Quirks, and Rhythms of Everyday Life.

Kay Xander Mellish
You can find the podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Audible, Google Podcasts-- it's absolutely everywhere. The book itself is exclusive to Amazon Kindle , and it only costs 35 krones. So I think it fits just about everybody's budget.

Fionn
That's wonderful. And I think it's, uh, definitely something that, I'll be checking out. I mean, I've been here for six, seven years and I always encounter more quirks to Danish life that I was not aware of, and they always take me by surprise. And they always take me back to the first time visiting Denmark and seeing a, uh, Sankt Hans effigy of a witch burning in my nephew's, uh, børnehave and all these little four year olds dancing around burning a witch. It was quite the culture shock.
Kay Xander Mellish
Isn't that amazing? And and what's so amazing about the burning of the witch is that's not an old tradition. That's from the 1920s. You would think that was something in the 1600s. No, that's actually fairly new. I do not like that particular tradition. I like a lot of traditions in Denmark. I don't like that one.

Katie
I like all the bread. There's a lot of bread in the traditions.

Kay Xander Mellish
You're absolutely right, Katie. There's a lot of good bread.

Fionn
And that's spread in life. But that is where we will leave it today. I think ultimately, and this doesn't sound too faux deep, but I think we had three stories kind of about transitions. Obviously buildings changing purpose and maybe revitalising parts of rural or giving the options to change parts of rural life. Obviously roads charging prices but I think there's a conversation there about, maybe one, transition to a greener society, but two, make sure that people aren't left behind in doing that. That we can't just look at the cores of big cities and say that we've, we've solved every public transport problem. And of course, I think the last is changing how people talk about difficult subjects, death and, and salaries. So very different topics. Uh, but I think similar, bigger questions underneath, you know, how do we make room for different ways of living, without losing the things that we already have. With that said, thank you so much from me. Thank you to all of our, our team behind the scenes who make this podcast happen and we will see you next week in Denmark. 

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LWID

Host
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Fionn O'Toole

Guest
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Katie Burns

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Kay Xander Mellish

Guest