Denmark’s Repair Rules, Migration & Youth Crime: LWID S6E2

Repair rules, migration & youth crime: Dominika and Narcis discuss Denmark’s new right to repair rules, the controversial Mette Frederiksen and Giorgia Meloni statement on Christian heritage and European values, and proposals to lower the age of criminal responsibility, with a focus on what these developments could mean for internationals living in Denmark.

Topics

(06:46) Right to Repair

(14:53) Christian Heritage & Migration

(26:23) Youth Crime & Criminal Responsibility

Our team:

• Cohosts: Dominika - https://www.linkedin.com/in/dominika-handzlik-200010/ and Narcis - https://www.linkedin.com/in/narcisgmatache/
• Podcast Operational Manager: Bence - www.linkedin.com/in/bence-bodogan-b3830b5b
• Audio Editor: Steve - https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephen-larke-mejia/
• Graphic Designer: Sariah - www.linkedin.com/in/sariah-romero
• YouTube: Ahmet - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ahmet-akkoc/ and Lei - https://www.linkedin.com/in/lei-zhang-2409a1205
• Transcript Editors: Melissa - https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissalarson1/

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Transcript

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Dominika: Welcome to The Last Week in Denmark podcast. Each week, we cover recent Danish news, stories, and developments relevant to internationals living here. If you're an international living in Denmark, or thinking of moving here, you'll wanna check out many of these episodes. We've got five full seasons ready for you to explore, and a new episode of season six coming out each week. I'm Dom, and this week, I am here with Narcis.

Narcis: Hello, everyone. Long time, no see! I hope you will be enjoying, uh, hearing my voice once again.

Dominika: Yes, and we have a lot of exciting topics coming up today that we have to discuss. We’re going to talk about the EU's right to repair rules in Denmark. We're going to talk about the, frankly, unexpected collaboration between Mette Frederiksen and Giorgia Meloni, and we're going to talk about the proposal to lower the age of criminal responsibility. But before we jump into these topics, um, have you ever heard about a thing called a… what is it called? A brune værtshus?

Narcis: “Brown joint,” your local bodega, your... I don't know. Um, do you have, uh, in Poland, something similar, like, to that, would you say?

Dominika: Not so much. Not so much, actually. And I think, maybe, important to mention why we're talking about this right now as our intro to the podcast is because there's a 28-year-old man who's setting off on a 3,000 kilometer cycling trip to visit all the brown pubs in Jutland. And I think it's quite a unique Danish phenomenon to have these cozy, affordable pubs where you can smoke inside.

Narcis: Yes, that's the key word there: smoke inside. So if some of you are still enjoying smoking and you seem to be bothered by the new regulations, well, “new,” they've been a while in place. Uh, and you want a place where you can just stay inside, hang out from, like, hide from the bad weather, I think, uh, finding a brown pub is, it can be the, the right place for you because the law allows you to smoke if you go to a place that's under forty square meters and where they don't serve food. So, um, that's your, uh, cheat code right there. If you're a smoker and you hate the bad weather outside, that's your hiding spot. And guess what? It comes together with a community. Actually, you'll be surprised that, uh, all of this, you say brown pub? It's such a weird way to say it in English, right? Brown pubs. Brown pubs.

Dominika: No, it’s not a very nice colour. I don't think it's a colour you want to associate with eating or drinking anything.

Narcis: No. I like bodega more, the word bodega, but I'm not sure if it's the right one.

Dominika: I, I think it's the same thing. I think bodega, maybe, is a more Copenhagen way to say it, from what I understood.

Narcis: More elite way to say, like, you just wanna say elite, but it's like, okay, how should I say without saying elite? Copenhagen. Everyone knows what you mean when you say Copenhagen; you mean elite. Aye yi yi. Okay, aren't you from Copenhagen?

Dominika: I mean, I live here, but I'm from Amager, so I feel like I'm not as elite as if I was from Frederiksberg, for example.

Narcis: Is there like a hidden spot in Copenhagen where like, "oh, we are not from the ivory towers here?”

Dominika: No, Amager is a little bit… it's a little bit, yeah, more… [Laughs]

Narcis: More?

Dominika: I guess, yeah. It's definitely more international here, I would say. So…

Narcis: Okay, so it's like a…

Dominika: Yeah, it’s not like a “classic” Copenhagen.

Narcis: Oh, so you guys don't have the fine salons we keep hearing about from the politicians up here in Jutland?

Dominika: [Laughs] No, unfortunately.

Narcis: No fine salons around you; only bodegas and the brown pubs. Why are they called brown, by the way?

Dominika: It's because, uh, the name... I know, I actually researched this 'cause I was curious. The name comes from the brown colour scheme created by the dark wooden furniture and also the decades of smoke that sort of cover everything that's in the pub. So that's why it's brown. 

Narcis: Have you ever been inside one? I remember going once, and it was so dark that I don't remember colours at all. I just remember- 

Dominika: No.

Narcis: …smoke in the air, dark colour, this shady character sitting at the [laughs]...

Dominika: [Laughs] Yes.

Narcis: …in front there with, uh, another shady character that was serving, uh, the, the, the beer. Nah, I'm being, just being mean. Of course, there’s just normal people, uh, in, uh, that. But you know, as an outsider who doesn't spend time in these brown pubs, uh, you only see such things in movies, and then you go there and be like, "wow, what a, what a recreation, uh, of a mafia 1950s movie, uh, right there," you know? [Laughs]

Dominika: It's a very Danish thing. I went once, and I left smelling like an ashtray. [Laughs] But it was nice. The beer was cheap, and I played some pool, I think? So it was a nice experience.

Narcis: Yeah, it's darts and pool. That's what you play in those, in those places. Did you get to talk to some of the regulars?

Dominika: No, that was during my early times in Denmark, so I didn't, I didn't dare. But I remember there was a little bell next to the bar, and if you ring it, apparently it means that you have to buy a round of beers for everyone. Um, so I didn't dare ring that either. But I think if I went nowadays, I might, I might have talked to someone.

Narcis: Basically, could this be a solution to loneliness? Let's say you feel lonely, you haven't really met anyone, you've been here for two, three, four, five, six, ten years, whatever, and you still feel very, like, you cannot break through, uh, and you wanna, you wanna meet someone. I guess, is that one solution, basically?

Dominika: I think so, yeah, for sure.

Narcis: So you just go to one of these pubs, ring the bell. Yeah, spend a bit of money, but, uh, make some new friends, I guess.

Dominika: Exactly. So that, that's the… that's the directive from today's podcast. Go find a brown pub near you and make some friends.

Narcis: Yeah, save the Danish culture, you know, 'cause they're cutting them down like crazy. It seems Danes themselves don't seem to be regularly attending them anymore, so, uh, uh, it… I think it's the culture of individuality that, uh, kind of kills any sort of community-based projects one by one. It's not just the brown pubs. It's associations. It's anywhere where you should be spending time after work, or used to be that people spent time after work. Now they spend time sitting on their phones and looking at TikTok and other social media channels, unfortunately. But, uh, Denmark itself used to be a, a country of, of... Like, the Danish culture itself is a culture of people coming together or spending time together in various formats, be that a brown pub or a sport club. Uh, luckily it's not dead. We cannot talk about it, so it's, it's not an obituary, but, uh, it has declined. It has declined, and it's, it's, it becomes a concern, uh, that we… we need to look at. But probably we'll take that in a, in another episode, as we have three tough topics to cover today. Dominika, what should we start with?

Dominika: Yes, exactly. Let's start with the EU's right to repair rules. I think that's very exciting for everyone.

Narcis: Mm.

Dominika: And I think most of us can agree that it's a good thing. So Denmark will be implementing it soon, meaning it will be easier to repair your electronics instead of having to buy new ones, and that covers a wide range of products, um, anything from washing machines to mobile phones, hard drives and TVs. Um, and Denmark has actually passed the EU's deadline to implement it by July 31. One of the reasons for that was the elections, but now they are talking about the bill, and they are planning to introduce it as soon as possible. Have you ever repaired anything or gotten anything repaired instead of replacing it?

Narcis: Unfortunately, I'm from that generation where we grew up with the idea that you always want the newest thing. You want the next thing, the upgrade, the further. Even if you wanted to repair, you wouldn't want to. You would want the next thing. Uh, I find it extremely hard to imagine just simply repairing some of my old phones or laptops or TVs when, you know, you wanna see progress in life, and you measure that progress by upgrading your, your electronics around you, slowly. So for me, it's, hmm, hard to imagine. I mean, I imagine my old laptops being refurbished and being repurposed in another setting for other people, maybe? Fine. I mean, I wouldn't be creating waste, of course. But myself, I have a hard time seeing repairing anything. Even the fridge, for God's sake, I changed it because I wanted something nicer, newer, more, you know, settings and, more options and whatnot. What about you? Have you done that?

[Music Begins]

Fionn: Did you know that the Last Week in Denmark newsletter is available in eight languages? Hey there, this is Fionn from the Last Week in Denmark podcast, and every week you guys are tuning in to hear me and my fellow cohosts talk about the top news of the week in English. But let's be real. We're all internationals, so not only are you speaking English every day, you're probably also speaking a bit of Danish. But you've probably also got your own native language as well, like the multilingual master you are. So why not treat yourself to the luxury of being able to read Danish news each week in your own native language? So head on over to lastweekdk.substack.com. That's lastweekdk.substack.com, and sign up for our newsletter delivered to you every single Sunday.

[Music Ends]

Dominika: Um, to a certain extent. So I actually have a story with that because, last year, both our dishwasher and oven broke at the same time; planned obsolency and all of that. And I remember the, the repair, it cost a ton of money, and in the end it turned out to be a small issue that we could have repaired ourselves, but we didn't really know how, and we ended up fixing the dishwasher and buying a new oven. But it was crazy because the repair was so expensive, and I think you don't always need a new oven or dishwasher. It's not like a phone where, maybe, you don't always need the newest specs? So I think this is great because there's two routes in this right to repair bill. The first route is that you can either have the manufacturer repair it either for free or for an affordable sum, or you can repair it yourself, and the manufacturers have to make the information on how to repair it and the spare parts to repair it more accessible. So I think that's quite a nice thing.

Narcis: I mean, we already have in Denmark the two-year legal framework, right? If, if you buy any sort of electronics, they are two years covered. So here we're talking basically after the two years of guarantee have expired, you're getting basically the possibility to repair. But I think this… I was thinking about it, and another cool thing that's coming thanks to this directive, which by the way, Denmark took its absolute longest time. It already expired, the deadline, like the time when they were supposed to implement it, and now they're doing just as quick as possible. I never seen a law that is supposed to be passed in two months and then become the next day already implemented. Usually the laws are implemented, let's say we make it now, but from 1st of January it will start being in place. No, no, no, this law has to be the absolute next day after they have voted, it becomes reality. So in 27th of August will be the second hearing. So I guess 28th of August we have our, uh, right to repair that has to be implemented? Of course, here we're talking about the long process. Danish, first of all, we're talking about Danish producers of electronics, which I don't know how many of them are there still, uh, or at least Danish importers of electronics, and they have to now, on their websites and so on, they have to sell spare parts, which they didn't have until now. They have to sell guides, they have to sell the tools they're using, so they, they no longer can make it hard to repair for people. So this means, ba-ba-bam, opportunity for some of you, who are entrepreneurs and wanna start something new. Repair shops! Repair shops existed once upon a time, it was an actual thing, and now EU wants to revive it. It's, that's why the whole spare parts, training materials, and so on that the companies have to make, uh, available. And next year they're launching a platform, a EU-wide platform, where all the repair cafes, repair shops, repair providers, independent repair people will be able to be there so that you as a customer can find them and, uh, get it. That's, that's great. You know, that will encourage more people. It's a, it's a new… Let's just say it's a new way to create a living. So if some of you are good with fixing stuff, and you enjoy doing that, then that's your thing. Don't lose this opportunity. I don't know how big will be the the, the demand in the beginning, but I think as you said, Dominika, like, yeah, you might not want to exchange your dishwasher because I don't know how much technology progress they make on those. They do, probably they do as well there, to be honest, I'm a wrong person to ask about repair, but [laughs] I, I'm an early adopter of all technologies, so it's a, it's a wrong person to ask. But I think majority of people will not care so much, so they will prefer repairing it, right? 

Dominika: No, exactly. Yeah. I also think from a sustainability point of view, this is absolutely great. So I'm, I’m very excited about this. The only thing that's a bit unclear to me, I've been trying to research it. So, one of the things they said is that if your product breaks, the manufacturer... One of the options you have is that they fix it for you. But does that mean you send your product there, or do they come? I, I couldn't find any, like, um, I don't know, practical details on that. Or maybe that will get shared later.

Narcis: Well, that depends on the, on the companies themselves. They're not obligated to come and pick it up from you, and repair it, and send it back to you. There's no such obligation coming with this law, so most likely, you'll have to pay for that shipping part, uh, back and forth. That's why, to be honest, their intent is more that not the companies should fix it for you, but the independent repair shops that they are trying to revive. Uh, so they will be more inclined to come directly to you, fix it maybe on the spot if it's a larger thing, and then, uh… and then, and, and then bill you. But very important here, even if you call an independent repair shop to fix it for you, it should still be much, much cheaper than buying a new one. So somehow the market should regulate itself, that it's still cheaper to, to do it. And this whole “free,” we have to be careful, because even though this says free, most companies will not take the free route. They will just take the cheap route.

Dominika: Yeah, I think we have to be aware of that.

Narcis: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I don't imagine a company will be like, "yeah, yeah, yeah, let, let me fix everything you have for free, uh, because we don't have profit as our main purpose, uh, as a company." So yeah. Anyway, I mean, I think it's a great thing coming from European Union, and I'm really happy that, uh, it, it came. I knew about it for a long time. I thought it was already there, honestly speaking. But, uh, it seems Denmark took its sweet time with it. It was passed two years ago, this directive. I remember it 'cause I, I wrote about it, and I was like, "okay, that must be a thing in all Europe." No. They took two years to, to make it happen. But what's, what's really also important is that they are not stopping here. They want to make the right to repair over every single product. Right now it's electronics, uh, but they are gonna move to others like, I don't know, bikes, cars, uh, everything 'cause they really want this repair market to be, uh, brought back to life, uh, as a way to replace. They, they simply wanna reduce the incentive for you to replace anything in life.

Dominika: No, I think this is great. And again, from a sustainability point of view, I think this is so much more impactful than any kind of sustainability reporting directive or anything, 'cause this is actually practical things that are being done. So well done, EU. [Laughs] We're happy.

Narcis: Yes. [Laughs] For once, something positive.

Dominika: Exactly. Exactly. Well, I guess we can move to our next topic, which we'll see if it's a positive or a less positive thing. Uh…

Narcis: Mm.

Dominika: There’s a slightly unexpected collaboration between Denmark's Prime Minister, Mette Frederiksen, and Italy's Prime Minister, Giorgia Meloni. They say that Europe must protect its Christian cultural heritage, and they expect people moving here to respect European values. Um, and they made, they made this joint statement. Nothing really followed this statement, so I don't know, how, how do you feel about this?

Narcis: Just have to see this in the, in the larger context. I don't know if you have noticed, but there is a whole cultural war started, uh, versus Islam, across Europe, I would say, to be honest, not just Denmark. So that's why you see a social democrat and a, well, neo-Nazi, taking hands together, uh, which is strange because once upon a time social democrats used to be put in camps by the neo-Nazis. Uh, but now somehow they work together. I mean, anything is possible, I guess, in this life. Uh, I'm, I'm shocked. I'm a social democrat myself, and, uh, I was, I was horrified by the, first of all, by the idea of working with the far-right, then by the idea of defending a Christian heritage. I mean, in Denmark, we're not, we are quite secular. Uh, what the hell is that about? Like, what Christian heritage, uh, are we talking? I mean, if you're talking about European values, they are not Christian heritage. I mean, if you talk about equality between men and women, that does not come from the Christian Church. If you talk about LGBT rights, does not come from the Christian Church. What else should we say? Rule of law? Yeah, of course, that's, that's for sure in the Catholic or the Protestant Church. You'll find so much rule of law in there. So I'm, I'm just curious. I mean, all these European values are born from bright minds who are not following the Christian values, who decided to think critically, independently from such values who held down most of the population. So I'm, I'm a bit surprised about the Christian heritage. I mean, are we talking about those churches that are empty and nobody goes to, uh, that now we are transforming them into bones and other cool restaurants? What is, what is the Christian heritage that we're talking about here?

Dominika: No, exactly. And I think, I think in general, the issue that I had with the statement is that, I think it is a statement that is meant to create strong emotions in people. It's meant to create fear in people. So when I was, when I was researching what I was, what I was wanting to say about it in this episode, I, I wanted to lead with data, and I wanted to lead with information, and I didn't really want to make it emotional because it shouldn't be. These are important topics that we shouldn't lead with emotions. But I wasn't even sure what I should research for this topic because it's such a broad statement that they made, and then they didn't really follow with anything else, that I'm not really sure what, how they want us to react to it, and that's where my confusion came from.

Narcis: I mean, to be honest, it's, it's, uh, it's, uh, it's they want to position themselves as versus something. Uh, I don't think Mette or Giorgia are that strong Christians and theologists [Dom laughs] or something. They just use some... And they don't say, uh, “Christian values.” They say “Christian heritage.” So they refer of something of the past, and somehow it's “Christian,” and if we allow Islam, the new wave, to somehow impact, uh, the heritage, our today's values somehow will be changed. So that's why they linked Christian heritage to the past with today's European values, to make sure that people understand that if more Islamic culture is allowed into Europe, then that, uh, those values could be changed. So that, that's, that's, that's what they're trying to use as a way to kind of use it as a counterbalance, not that they are such strong, uh, believers, uh, or anything like that, which is… I mean, it's, it's a political tactic. And to be honest, we are going towards this whole thing called “Fortress Europe.” To be honest, I knew about this ten years ago, fifteen years ago, when I was working with, uh, when I… I don't know if you know, but I worked in European Parliament, and there was a, there was a huge discussion about this, that, um, Europe will go slowly towards self-preservation. Self-preservation, meaning that we are becoming a smaller and smaller part in the world. We're becoming a, like, um… let's just say, uh, we have less influence, less power. So our, our instinct will be that we will try to preserve what we know and build walls around Europe as much as possible and, and then somehow be the highest society that everyone aspires to in here and, uh, don't really… Because, unfortunately, the world cannot have Europe all over because that will destroy the world. To have Europe is very expensive for the planet. So if you wanna have Europe everywhere so people will not have a reason to come here, then the planet will not be able to survive. There's just not enough resources to go around to make everywhere Europe. That's, if you understand what I mean. So, so, so, so what they want is they wanna preserve our quality and level of life by building a fortress around, by having all these external countries to become some sort of hubs where they can choose and pick, "okay, he can be useful. She cannot be. It can be. They can be. Ze can be." You know, all the zes and the bes, that can be in there. So yeah, I mean, uh, that, that's, that's, that's the whole conversation here. It's, it's about migration. It's about how they wanna stop people from, uh, from coming from outside of Europe in here and just be able to select who they wanna come. I don't believe in that. I'm, I'm, uh, personally my own beliefs is that we need to have open borders everywhere. Uh, humans are, have migrated our entire human history, uh, from one place to another and, uh, I think we should just, you know, adapt to the situation that we have in and, and find a way to, to make it work, um, everywhere. Because we're creating businesses. You know, Fortress Europe means that some people who will find ways around Fortress Europe will become very rich at bringing people from that one side to the other. We're just creating unnecessary businesses for the bad people, basically. But yeah, I mean, that's just my opinion. I mean, I know, I know a lot of people are afraid of the unknown, so they don't wanna have neighbours they don't know. But to be honest, do you even speak to your neighbours, Dominika?

Dominika: Uh, one of them? [Laughs] 

Narcis: [Laughs]

Dominika: Sometimes, yeah. Sometimes when, I don't know, I ran out of sugar or something. [Laughs]

Narcis: I never spoke to any of my neighbours, to be honest. I, I have houses all around. I wouldn't see a difference if tomorrow all the Danes that I have around will be replaced by Pakistani, uh…

Dominika: Exactly.

Narcis: …or whatever. What would happen? I will hear more Pakistani music maybe instead of, uh, quietness? That might make the place more alive, actually. So, yeah.

Dominika: But I also think what you said, um, what you said is super important 'cause you said that, like, people have always migrated. And I think this is such an important point to say because a lot of right-wing politicians, they want you to believe that migration is a very new phenomenon, that now it's happening, like Europe is being bombarded by migrants. But actually, there's a book I read, uh, it's called, I think, The Truth About Migration… How Migration Really Works, that's how it's called. Um, and basically ever since World War II ended, the kind of global level of migration has stayed more or less the same. Of course, it has fluctuated when there was certain refugee crisis, but it has always stayed more or less the same. So migration is not this new thing that has suddenly happened in the last ten years, and we suddenly have to defend ourselves against it. It's just a political topic that's now being talked about, but it's nothing crazy that's happening to us right now and hasn't happened before.

Narcis: But right now, I think the biggest fear is that people on the top level, they know what's happening. They know that climate change is real, and they know that a lot of countries around Europe, they cannot sustainably support the populations they have due to the fact that simply they cannot produce enough food. So I don't know if you have seen the situation, but Morocco, which is supposed to be one of the top countries in Africa, it's not a poor country by any measurement, uh, they cannot feed their entire population. They have hundreds of young people sitting on the, on the streets, uh, trying to, to make a life for themselves, but they cannot because there is not enough food going around. So there is a lack of food because agriculture, it doesn't produce as much because the climate has changed. It has become more aggressive. Uh, it's the same situation with Syria. You know, a lot of people blamed the war in Syria as the main thing, but before the war, what triggered the output of food has dropped significantly because the… everything, uh, dried out. Um, so I mean, climate will force more people to move. That's just how it's gonna be. Um, and we have to be prepared for the idea that nothing is forever. Yes, the Europe in the current, uh, form has, maybe, existed for a couple decades. Um, but before that, it was different, and before, before that, it was different, and before, before that, it was different. Uh, you know, even the nations themselves are freshly minted things that we have invented in the last two centuries. They didn't exist forever. If you go back in time and you ask people living in Denmark, "are you Danish?" And they'd be like, "what the... what is that?" You know, "what are you talking about?" [Laughs] Is this like what… yeah, the… I, I… all, all they knew was this goddamn, uh, uh, rich person that was, uh, eating their days alive because they had to work in their… on, on their behalf, Lord von Zettelman and whatever, and that was their life, uh, was connected to that lord, and that's the extent of their universe. Um, so I mean, we have to understand, we should live in the present. We should, uh, enjoy where we are now, and then we should understand that the… we cannot, we cannot create policies today in the hope that the next hundred years will look exactly the same. 'Cause that's actually the, the, the, the fear people have. They wanna make sure that the children and children of children somehow will be living in the same society because they're afraid to die and because they don't, they don't want to like, "oh, I don't want to feel like everything I built just went for nothing," you know? So… 

Dominika: Yeah, totally agree. Um, I think there's so much more we could say about this topic. I think it's such an interesting topic. One last thing I will add is that Denmark already has one of the harshest migration models in, in Europe, and it's actually certain things that Denmark does have been called by some UN human rights experts as incompatible with human rights; the way we treat migrants from certain countries that are not EU. So I don't know, I don't know how much more they want to strengthen those migration laws, but I think it's already quite strict here.

Narcis: Their biggest worry is because people, uh, come to, let's say, Spain, and then they come here as Spanish residents, uh, and they cannot do anything about it afterwards. Uh, so that's the… I, I don't think the fear is anymore about Danish borders. It's more about European external borders that they are more concerned about. Um, yeah, that's, that's a long conversation, and we still have one topic and very little time.

Dominika: Exactly. [Laughs] So we need to move on. 

Narcis: What's the last topic?

Dominika: So our last topic is that some Danish parties, they want to follow Sweden's decision to lower the age of criminal responsibility, arguing that children as young as twelve should face criminal responsibility for particularly serious crimes. So I think a bit of context that's important to mention here is that in Denmark in 2010, the Venstre government and the Danish People's Party, they lowered the age of criminal responsibility from fifteen to fourteen, and then two years later in 2012, it was repealed and raised back up to fifteen after studies showed that it did not, in fact, reduce youth crime, um, and actually increased reoffending rates and worsened educational outcomes for affected youth. Right now the Danish age for crime responsibility is fifteen, but they are thinking of lowering it again. What do you think? Have you found any data on this?

Narcis: To be honest, I'm a bit, uh, surprised that, uh, they, they, they say they are better than Sweden, but the moment Sweden does something, they are, like, immediately jumping like, "let's do it like Sweden! Let's do, let's, let's do as well!" 

Dominika: [Laughs] We want to do it too!

Narcis: But we literally done it before. We have a, like, a live experiment. We have, uh, researchers saying that it did not work. But we forgot, and it was, what? Sixteen years ago only, not God knows, a decade, like, uh, half, uh, fifty years ago. So it was very recent history. We tried it as a social experiment, it failed, and now we wanna deter it again. Although some are asking, they wanna, because they don't wanna be like Sweden, they're asking for twelve years old! Because, you know, they're looking at UK, where it's ten.

Dominika: Yeah. Ten, yeah.

Narcis: If you imagine, in UK, it's ten-years-old because, you know, if they feel like you are a bit of a criminal, they wanna make sure you are a criminal the rest of your life. Because you know what? Prison is an education system for future criminals. Uh, it's a perfect place to recruit, uh, to recruit your, uh, gang members and whatnot. So I, I, myself, I don't believe prison for youth in general is a way to, uh, to solve it. And in Denmark, it's not like if you're thirteen, twelve, fourteen and you kill someone, you're… you're off. No, you're not off. 

Dominika: No, you don’t walk free.

Narcis: We have systems in place. Exactly! I think people misunderstand, like, legal…

Dominika: Exactly.

Narcis: It simply means that you have a crime record on your, on yourself, uh, that, uh, and you're, you're actually put in a real prison, while if you're under fifteen, you are put in a re-education facility where they focus on you changing your way of being, changing your way of acting, and understanding why did you do X thing, whatever you have done. But oh my God, I mean, I cannot imagine children that are ten, eleven, twelve, uh, going to prison. For me it's, uh, it's horrifying.

Dominika: No, exactly.

Narcis: I don't know.

Dominika: Especially that, um… so the, the youth gangs in Sweden, it has been shown that it's most commonly children from rough backgrounds or, yeah, from families that are not doing too well, and they are purposely being recruited by these gangs through social media, this fake sense of belonging, to join the gangs. And the reason the gangs recruit children is because children don't have... children below a certain age don't have criminal responsibility. But I don't think lowering the age of criminal responsibility will fix the problem. And, and again, just like you said, not lowering the age of criminal responsibility doesn't mean that you walk away without a punishment if you do something terrible. It just means that you don't go to prison like an adult if you're twelve.

Narcis: I mean, just look at the recent cases with the Swedish kids who came to Denmark to do crime, right? They were all under the age of legal responsibility. They still got punished for, um, for the, the, you know, the attacks that they have done, uh, on various establishments. So I mean, it's, it's, it's simply a situation about, uh, where does that punishment happens? Does it happen in prison, in the criminal system, or does it happen in a re-education facility? It, and because it's a re-education facility doesn't mean that they go home. They still live there full time. It's just they don't work with wardens. They work with psychologists, with trainers, so society's trying to rehabilitate them, to be honest. Um, but I mean, I don't know. I feel like for me this is not the way to go. That's just not the way. I would actually increase the age of responsibility to eighteen. It surprises me that you cannot go to drive or vote, but you can go to prison before doing any of those two things. So it's just, I'm, I'm a bit shocked. Okay, I'm not a full citizen, but you can still punish me like the other full citizens. So I'm against, uh, lowering the, the age of criminals. So I'm actually up for raising it to eighteen, okay. Or, you know, then lower the age of driving, lower the age of, uh, uh, voting to fifteen. Okay, I'm old enough to go to prison. I'm old enough to vote.

Dominika: [Laughs] We'll see what happens then.

Narcis: [Laughs] Well, I mean, you want to make, to treat me as an adult, then treat me as an adult from the beginning, right?

Dominika: Yeah. Yeah. I checked and it's actually seventeen-years-old in, in Poland, unless it's a particularly bad crime, then it's, it goes a bit lower. Do you know how much it is in Romania? I checked that too.

Narcis: Can you check it? I don't know. 

Dominika: It’s fourteen.

Narcis: Damn! Okay, I'm surprised that it's fourteen. Jesus Christ, people don't even have a job in Romania before they are twenty. It's like, and you treat them as adults at fourteen, that's the craziest thing. It's stupid. Uh, to be honest, Romania follows like crazy whatever happens in the West. Um, so I'm not surprised that, uh, if in the West is law, in Romania is law as well. Whatever the West does, Romania does. It's just like a little experiment country, uh, in terms of law making... Especially France has done it because whatever France does, Romania does. It's a very Francophone country. Even our entire legal system is built on the French legal system. I don't know if, who Poland, I don't know who Poland uh, follows in that direction in terms of legal inspiration.

Dominika: I think we just like the West in general. Just… yeah.

Narcis: But somehow still seventeen, I think it's, uh, your Christian, uh, uh, or the Catholic background that kept, kept it high somehow.

Dominika: Could be, could be actually. I think so. I think that could be. Uh, and in general also, Sweden is now apparently adopting a lot of local strategies to actually prevent the recruitment in the first place, which I think is the right thing to do. I think the people who should be punished are the people who are recruiting these children in the first place, and there has been positive results in certain high-risk Stockholm areas. Um, but apparently the implementation is what's hard because, of course, money is an issue. Um, yeah, and a lot of municipalities, they lack the resources. So, so this is an ongoing project, but apparently some of these strategies are working, and I think prevention is definitely always the way to go.

Narcis: You know what, what surprises me or doesn't surprise me because, I mean, we live, uh, we have recorded history for a couple of centuries now. We know that gangs recruit from poor environments because people are incentivised by financial gain to do certain things, not because they're born evil and they wanna start killing people now, right? So it's, it's a common fact. We all agree to that, and we all know that, that gangs target poor environments. Now question is, why does Sweden, poor, poor Sweden became a gangland? Does it mean that the inequality in Sweden has grown to a level where you have, even though on the outside it looks like a rich country, on the inside they have so many areas that are technically poor? Like, that's my question to Sweden, like, are you guys still okay? Do you… are you a rich country? [Laughs] 'Cause it doesn't seem like it. Why do you have poor areas? Like, why such places exist in north of Europe? It surprises me. It should be quite impossible for gangs to recruit in, in north of Europe. I mean, yes, I understand if they go to poorer countries somewhere else. But if they recruit from here, that means there are areas that were neglected by the society that have, with time, developed quite high levels of poverty, which means that you can go there with 100,000 crowns and you will find someone to do something.

Dominika: It is, in many cases, a matter of just poor city planning and then where certain parts just become poorer. So I think, yeah, like you said, nobody's born evil. It is, in most cases, just circumstances that make people do the things that they do. 

Narcis: Exactly. So instead of talking about lowering criminal responsibility, maybe tackle the poor areas, at least for God's sake, make it like they were thinking to do with internationals with the ghettos, right? They want to disperse, uh, internationals across different, uh, streets, so you don't really know which where they are. I mean, they, I know this sounds crazy, and don't take it as a real thing, but it's for fun. But they could take all the poor people and spread them around, you know? Create like in each, in each, in each street there should be like, unknown, where various apartments that are meant for poor people. Uh, so that they blended in so well with middle class, rich class, poor class in the same context that as a recruiter, as a gang recruiter, I'll be like, "okay, where the hell, which door should I beat at?" Right?

Dominika: Yeah. Yeah. No, I think the problem here is that a lot of it is done through social media too. So that wouldn't solve everything, right? I think, yeah, that's a whole other issue, social media access for teenagers. That's a whole other topic that I have a lot of opinions about but…

Narcis: There's a solution there: just ban the damn thing and end the whole story.

Dominika: Ban it for everyone. [Laughs]

Narcis: [Laughs] Of course, banning will also create others, uh, way, you know how it happened with prohibition in the past, right? Banning alcohol created mafia in US, so…

Dominika: Exactly. And then how would people find the podcast? [Laughs]

Narcis: Via forums! Do you remember forums? Blogs!

Dominika: A little bit. Yeah. True, true. [Laughs]

Narcis: You, you must be much younger than me, so... But, uh, the… once upon a time, we used to live on forums. Uh, there was no such thing as, uh, social media. I mean, there was Hi5, whatever the hell. But Hi5 was more like… I don't remember what was on Hi5. Yeah, it's became fuzzy, the memory. But anyway, I think we passed way above time. I'm sorry to every single episode where I'm part of, it becomes a bit longer than expected. But, uh, hopefully you guys have enjoyed these conversations we had here today. Thank you so much, Dom, for today. It was, it was really fun to record another episode of Last Week in Denmark. Uh, and I hope the, the listeners understand that this is an opinion-based, uh, podcast. It's, yes, we do announce news, but those news are factual, and they come from the newsletter. But in here, we do put our opinions, uh, about them in place. And, uh, you can continue the conversation at home with your, uh, with the people you enjoy talking to. Uh, that's the whole idea of this, uh, of this podcast is that we take, uh, important subjects, or not, and, uh, we talk because, you know, we as humans have this social need of, uh, of, uh, coexisting together, of, of sharing things with each other. So… And sometimes you do run out of things to talk about, right? You can only talk so much about the weather and the children and, uh, I don't know, future plans, and salaries, and money, and whatnot. And then you have other reasons to talk about. So why not talk about, uh, the age of [laughs] criminal responsibility, the Christian heritage, and, uh… what, what we start… the right to repair! I mean, should you repair that washing machine or not?

Dominika: Very relevant topic.

Narcis: Absolutely. I mean…

Dominika: I believe, yes. So, thank you for listening, and we hope that it inspires a discussion with the listeners too, and we will see you next week!

Narcis: See ya!

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